ExtortionLetterInfo Forums

ELI Forums => Getty Images Letter Forum => Topic started by: Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi) on July 07, 2012, 10:01:23 AM

Title: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi) on July 07, 2012, 10:01:23 AM
A user on my facebook group ( not the ELI FB page) submitted this on Thursday, I'm not in a position to do much research but wanted to share. Feel free to do some digging, or I'll get on it when I get back..Just another sleaze ball company that deserves some ELI love and free PR.

" I just had a letter from a company called 'Atradius Collections' on behalf of Getty. They are demanding payment again. The last letter i received prior to this was August 11th and that is a gap of 11months. Is that a bit weird? Is the company a legit company?"
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Moe Hacken on July 07, 2012, 11:16:39 AM
That was easy given the company name. They're an international company that offers debt collection services:

http://www.atradiuscollections.com/products/debtcollections/debt-collections.html

Reading this page you can see what their debt collection services include:

Quote
Atradius Collections helps collect outstanding invoices and:

  • Improves the cash flow of your business
  • Relieves you of a time- and energy-consuming collection process
  • Maintains your sustainable relationship with your customer for future business

However, no matter how much lipstick Getty puts on it, the issue here is not a debt that is not being paid. What they're trying to do is claim a settlement amount for an alleged copyright infringement.

I think it would be safe to say your facebook friend can tell Atradius Collections they have no outstanding invoices with Getty and to stop sending letters or calling or trying to contact them in any other way because this matter is closed and if they insist, a complaint will be filed with the appropriate consumer protection agencies and even the BBB and FTC.

Of course, Atradius now qualifies for the distinction of being included in our trolling debt collection agency list. I find it quite interesting that they're an international outfit that covers most of Getty's target markets. I guess you could say they're a one-stop-shop for the Getty debt collection trolling approach.

By the way, can you believe the last point? "We're going to troll you on behalf of Getty, after which we can all still be friends!"
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Greg Troy (KeepFighting) on July 07, 2012, 12:05:35 PM
I am curious Robert, did the person who received this letter reside in the United States or are they located elsewhere? Since this is an agency that collects debts and is an international company this could be just to Getty is using if the person resides outside of the United States and within one of the countries the business operates in.
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Greg Troy (KeepFighting) on July 07, 2012, 12:32:47 PM
From their website:

Quote
Facts and Figures
 

A global leader in business to business debt collections
> 350 Collections specialists worldwide provide customers with local expertise
Single point of contact for our customers
20 Offices worldwide
Part of the Atradius Group with 160 offices in 42 countries
We serve more than 12,000 customers
We handle more than 100,000 cases a year
One global process and IT platform for fast and efficient handling of your debt
Worldwide average success rate* of 55,84%
* Debt collection success rate = The value of collected payments expressed as a percentage of the total debt received, excluding insolvencies and withdrawals

here's a list of countries in which they maintain offices worldwide:

Belgium, Canada, Czech Republic, Mexico, Denmark, USA, France, Germany, Oceania, Hungary, Australia, Ireland, Italy, Asia, The Netherlands, Hong Kong, Poland, Singapore, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and the United Kingdom.

it says on their website that the company was originally founded in the Netherlands in 1925.
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi) on July 07, 2012, 07:53:07 PM
I'm not sure where he is from, I did refer him here, and he responded that he would share with us...we'll see
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: SoylentGreen on July 07, 2012, 08:24:31 PM
Here's some interesting info.  It's from a commercial site, and I'm not affiliated with it.
Normally, I prefer not to post anything too commercial, but I think that the info is really worth reading in regard to debt collection in the United States.

"What if the person asking you for the money, "Bob", is a lawyer?
Under the FDCPA, even if Joe hires a lawyer or law firm to collect a debt from you, the lawyer or law firm is still considered a collector and must adhere to the FDCPA."


http://www.creditinfocenter.com/rebuild/debt_validation.shtml


In this case, I see "Bob" as being "Timothy McCormack" and "Joe" as "Getty Images".
As such, McCormack is acting as a "collection agency" and is subject to the FDCPA.


Now, get this:

"The Right to Validate Your Debt
Under the FDCPA, you are allowed to validate this debt, and the creditor (in this case, the collection agency) must show you proof that you owe the debt to the collection agency (not to the original creditor.)"

The specific section of the FDCPA:
FDCPA Section 809. Validation of debts [15 USC 1692g]
(b) If the consumer notifies the debt collector in writing within the thirty-day period described in subsection (a) that the debt, or any portion thereof, is disputed, or that the consumer requests the name and address of the original creditor, the debt collector shall cease collection of the debt, or any disputed portion thereof, until the debt collector obtains verification of the debt or any copy of a judgment, or the name and address of the original creditor, and a copy of such verification or judgment, or name and address of the original creditor, is mailed to the consumer by the debt collector."

"Plus, they must show proof positive that you owe them this debt. It's not enough to send you a computer-generated printout of the debt."

---


In conclusion, when Timothy McCormack has been "assigned" a phony debt by Getty images, he's acting as a "debt collector" plain and simple.
Because Timothy McCormack cannot Validate such a debt, he has 30 days to prove such debt upon written notice (he can't), and he must cease contacting you.

S.G.


(http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9899/timothymccormackdebtcol.jpg)


Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Greg Troy (KeepFighting) on July 07, 2012, 08:48:07 PM
That is indeed a very interesting article SG and a great find!  The implication of this is great indeed, if Timmy doesn't provide you with the proof, you can add the FTC to the list in addition to the attorney general, bar associations and BBB for your complaint letters.

Hopefully before long the only thing Timmy will be asking for is to know if you want to Biggie size that. :) :)

Again, great find SG!
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Moe Hacken on July 07, 2012, 10:34:38 PM
Good find, S.G. The fine distinction is whether the troll approaches one with a legal claim or attempts to present one with an invoice for a debt one has not incurred. If it's the latter, then the troll is a debt collector no matter what other job he may pretend to hold.

If the claim is in the form of a legal claim for copyright infringement, I would still demand proof that the party enforcing the copyright indeed has the legal right to enforce it, and that should include the author's information. "We'll show you during discovery" is just ridiculous. I don't think any reasonable judge would fault one for not writing a check without any proof being shown.
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Moe Hacken on July 07, 2012, 11:22:21 PM
In reading the article that scraggy posted on the thread about class actions against the porn trolls, one of the complaints filed made a very interesting point.

If the troll is attempting to extort money through the telephone and has no right to collect a debt or settle a lawsuit, they are committing wire fraud. This is item 27 of the facts in the complaint:

Quote
18 USC. 1343 makes it unlawful to use wire transmissions in a scheme or artifice to attempt to fraudulently obtain money from another.

This is on page 7 of the following complaint filed against some California porn trolls:

http://newsandinsight.thomsonreuters.com/uploadedFiles/Reuters_Content/2012/07_-_July/barkervcolliins--complaint.pdf

It sounds to me like anyone who calls on the phone claiming to be collecting a debt better have the right to do so or they're exposing themselves to a complaint for wire fraud.

So Timmy should be VERY careful calling anyone attempting to "collect on a debt." I wonder if wire transmissions include contact by email as well.

(http://i.qkme.me/3q0ep0.jpg)
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: SoylentGreen on July 07, 2012, 11:37:13 PM
Good discussion.  There's certainly a distinction between a "legal demand" and a "debt collection".
However, I think that one needs to look closely at what McCormack is actually doing.
The problem for him is that he's sending literally hundreds of these letters out.  But, he does no actual litigation in regard to these.
He sends letters and makes phone calls trying to get money for years until the limitation expires.

Additionally, these same cases are then "assigned" or "sold" to collection agencies.
This really blurs the line between a "legal demand" and a "collection".
I think that Getty's made a big mistake by doing this.

I feel that McCormack is actually in the "collection" business, regardless of how he words it.  Other people may think so too. 
If he's essentially doing the same thing as a collection agency, the FDCPA may be interested.
Here's a thought experiment; try running what's essentially a collection agency, but abuse the rules and use the excuse "I didn't say 'collection agency' or 'debt' anywhere.
You'd be put out of business, lawyer or not.  I'm pretty sure that the litmus test for this is not just "wording" in the letters.  It's what a person is actually "doing".
Now we know why he's worried about his phone calls being recorded.  I totally get it now.
He better be really careful.

S.G.

Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi) on July 08, 2012, 11:07:12 AM
Great find, great discussion..for every letter the copyright cow Timothy Mccormack sends out, we can now send out like 5 complaints! His sphincter is probably so worn out from puckering at this point, he's probably got himself a butt plug....well actually he may have already had one of those.....just say'in
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Greg Troy (KeepFighting) on July 08, 2012, 11:55:02 AM
Glad to see you posting again Robert we've missed you and there's even more places you can send letters to than that! My current list of letters of I have for Getty consist of the Washington State Atty. Gen.'s office, the Ohio State Atty. Gen.'s office (since they sent their letters to me across state lines to where I do business and Ohio's laws are much more defined and put up with less of the crap that Getty tries to pull than the Washington state laws), the Washington State BBB, be Ohio State BBB, the senator and congressman for my district as well as their Ohio counterparts and of course the office of the president of the United States. Since it is an election year I thought what the heck, I would send out the last batch letters appropriately modified to reflect how Getty is hiding behind copyright law and using extortionist practices to inflict harm on individuals and small businesses trying to recover in these economic times. I tell them that a simple Google search in addition to looking at the Eli forms will show that this is widespread and affecting many people and ask that this be looked into with the possibility of Senate and Congressional hearings to make Getty come in and account for themselves. And I let them know that this issue as a voting business person is very dear to my heart as I am affected by it.

Of course now I can add to this the list of potential buyers for Getty and send letters to them as well as I mentioned earlier.

And I am really hoping that Timmy will send me a letter as I would enjoy sending complaint letters to all of the above mentioned places in addition to the Washington, Idaho and Oregon State Bar associations. Come on Timmy I'm waiting, I'm starting to get Robert I twitch and my finger is hovering over the print button ;).

I am ready and prepared to give serious butthurt to Getty and anyone that allies themselves with them. I think Eli should adopt the old Civil War flag of the rattlesnake coiled up ready to strike with the slogan underneath it saying Don't Tread On Me :)

Great find, great discussion..for every letter the copyright cow Timothy Mccormack sends out, we can now send out like 5 complaints! His sphincter is probably so worn out from puckering at this point, he's probably got himself a butt plug....well actually he may have already had one of those.....just say'in
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Moe Hacken on July 08, 2012, 12:54:01 PM
Quote
I am ready and prepared to give serious butthurt to Getty and anyone that allies themselves with them. I think Eli should adopt the old Civil War flag of the rattlesnake coiled up ready to strike with the slogan underneath it saying Don't Tread On Me

... or we'll "thread" on YOU!  8)
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Greg Troy (KeepFighting) on July 08, 2012, 03:18:14 PM
I like that one even better Moe! :)

Quote
I am ready and prepared to give serious butthurt to Getty and anyone that allies themselves with them. I think Eli should adopt the old Civil War flag of the rattlesnake coiled up ready to strike with the slogan underneath it saying Don't Tread On Me

... or we'll "thread" on YOU!  8)
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Moe Hacken on July 08, 2012, 03:35:11 PM
Can't wait for Buddhapi to talk about Timmy's butthurt on the air!  ;D
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Greg Troy (KeepFighting) on July 08, 2012, 03:52:57 PM
Glad to see you back posting again Robert, I have certainly missed your humor although Oscar may have enjoyed the break from having to cringe so much :) :) :)

Great find, great discussion..for every letter the copyright cow Timothy Mccormack sends out, we can now send out like 5 complaints! His sphincter is probably so worn out from puckering at this point, he's probably got himself a butt plug....well actually he may have already had one of those.....just say'in
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi) on July 08, 2012, 05:22:06 PM
Just a few hit and runs, I'm due back in the office by friday, which gives me the weekend to "catch up"!
Oscar probably has been glad for a small break, but be warned there will be verbals enema's coming for those that deserve them!

Glad to see you back posting again Robert, I have certainly missed your humor although Oscar may have enjoyed the break from having to cringe so much :) :) :)

Great find, great discussion..for every letter the copyright cow Timothy Mccormack sends out, we can now send out like 5 complaints! His sphincter is probably so worn out from puckering at this point, he's probably got himself a butt plug....well actually he may have already had one of those.....just say'in
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Couch_Potato on July 09, 2012, 06:05:13 AM
Isn't Getty now attempting to charge for a retrospective licence rather than collect on an infringement and that is why they are adding sales tax where applicable? It's definitely what they are doing in Europe because they add VAT which you can't do on a settlement for infringement.

If that is the case then it's a debt they are chasing and anyone chasing it should adhere to the appropriate laws.
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi) on July 09, 2012, 10:01:07 AM
They may claim it's a debt, but it's still a claim, they have nothing on paper stating you have done business with them and owe them..They are trying to adapt to the changing landscape thanks to ELI, but as in the past, they don't seem to have their ducks in a row....

I have an 1976 AMC Pacer for sale...make an offer
needs a little work, parts are obsolete, it's the ugliest car ever produced....come buy it...kinda like Getty being for sale..
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Couch_Potato on July 09, 2012, 10:28:54 AM
By the looks of it they are trying to reach an agreement on the basis that you have used their image and want to charge you for that use. So at first it's neither a debt nor a claim but a sale.

They are operating in such a grey area that I bet if most of their cases did go to court they'd have been put out of business long ago.
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: gettyhater on July 09, 2012, 02:50:43 PM
Hi All,

My client received the letter from Atradius Collections. We are based in England and i thought it was a bit strange that the contacted my client again with an absence of 11 months.

Attached is their letter.

(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/t/zadmt.jpg) (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/zadmt)

We dont know whether to pay up or continue ignoring them.
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi) on July 09, 2012, 03:33:07 PM
@ Gettyhater, first thing you need to do is get educated as to the whole process..you also need to know that this is a claim not a debt, I don't know the laws in the UK, but you may want to throw this back in the collection agency's hand, explaining this to them, they have no right to collect on a claim!
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Matthew Chan on July 09, 2012, 03:58:57 PM
Can you email your letter to matt30060 at gmail? Your posted image is painfully difficult to download. We are happy to redact the personal information.

Hi All,

My client received the letter from Atradius Collections. We are based in England and i thought it was a bit strange that the contacted my client again with an absence of 11 months.

Attached is their letter.

We dont know whether to pay up or continue ignoring them.
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Moe Hacken on July 09, 2012, 11:22:31 PM
Good point, Buddhapi. I find this letter quite confusing. They have a collection agency collecting a settlement claim for Getty without providing any specifics about the infringement in question, claiming Getty had sent you some information in an earlier communication. This raises all kinds of questions:
Furthermore, has anyone agreed to pay any amount to Getty and then reneged? If not, why is a collection agency talking to anyone about a settlement claim that has not been discussed?

Maybe we need to see the first letter to get a better idea of what's going on. Switching from legal claim to debt collection seems totally capricious and haphazard, not to mention absurd.

By the way, Matthew's right. It's hard to download and read the image of the letter. Maybe you could send him copies of both letters.
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Greg Troy (KeepFighting) on July 10, 2012, 01:22:37 AM
I think this just might be a legal loophole that they're using Moe, if anyone who is familiar with the laws concerning debt collection tries to call them on it saying you have not provided me with proof of the debt, they have an out by saying that Getty has informed us that they have already sent you this information and did not forward it to us. I think they put that line in there just as a CYA move.

Good point, Buddhapi. I find this letter quite confusing. They have a collection agency collecting a settlement claim for Getty without providing any specifics about the infringement in question, claiming Getty had sent you some information in an earlier communication. This raises all kinds of questions:
  • Did the first letter have any information about the alleged infringement, such as the copyright registration and the author's name?
  • Does Getty have the right to enforce this copyright?
  • How did your client infringe a copyright and what "proof" do they have that an infringement was committed?
  • Did they send you a PicScout screen capture?
Furthermore, has anyone agreed to pay any amount to Getty and then reneged? If not, why is a collection agency talking to anyone about a settlement claim that has not been discussed?

Maybe we need to see the first letter to get a better idea of what's going on. Switching from legal claim to debt collection seems totally capricious and haphazard, not to mention absurd.

By the way, Matthew's right. It's hard to download and read the image of the letter. Maybe you could send him copies of both letters.
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Couch_Potato on July 10, 2012, 05:34:50 AM
UK Debt collection law states they must supply you with information on your debt if requested. If you requested it they couldn't simply state that Getty had provided it earlier but they can probably get away with it in their initial communication.

If you did request it and they didn't provide it they couldn't contact you again requesting payment. If they don't have the proof they'd have to go back to Getty and get it. If they did have it all along you could certainly question why it wasn't provided at outset....and round and round you go.
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Couch_Potato on July 10, 2012, 06:16:12 AM
Looking through the Office of Fair Trading overarching principles of fair business practice for companies collecting debts they do state the following:

companies should be transparent in their dealings with debtors and others – information provided should be clear and should not be confusing or misleading.

It could be stated that a debt collection letter with only a passing reference to what the debt is they are collecting without any further information is not very transparent.

and

treat debtors fairly – debtors should not be subjected to aggressive practices, inappropriate coercion, or conduct which  is deceitful, oppressive, unfair or improper, whether unlawful or not

Threatening court action is definitely unfair as they must know that no debt actually exists and Getty couldn't prove it without a court order. As far as I can tell they have no authority to take you to court for the alleged infringement themselves, only Getty can do that so what they have stated is also deceitful. They wouldn't get away with the excuse that it's a standard template.

Depends whether you think a complaint to the OFT will make them back off or annoy them enough to try to take further action.
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Matthew Chan on July 12, 2012, 08:00:05 PM
The copy of the Atradius Collection Letter has been posted as a reference:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/99950455/Atradius-Collections-Letter

It references the UK Getty Images Settlement Demand Letter:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/99950309/UK-Getty-Images-Settlement-Demand-Letter

This is the first copy of the UK Getty Images Letter ELI has acquired and posted. It is very similar to the U.S. and Canadian Getty Images Settlement Demand Letter. The UK letter is only different by virtue of the letterhead address, payment party information/instructions, and the currency used for payment.

The Atradius Collections Letter references the Copyright, Design, and Patents Act of 1988 (aka CDPA).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright,_Designs_and_Patents_Act_1988

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/contents
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Moe Hacken on July 12, 2012, 10:13:57 PM
It's interesting that in the FAQs they explain that "pursuant to Irish VAT regulations, legal settlements are subject to Ireland VAT."

In another thread we were discussing sales tax being added to claims in some states in the US. I wonder if they explain it as neatly in those extortion letters.
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Couch_Potato on July 13, 2012, 05:45:24 AM
I'm not familiar with VAT regulations in Ireland, however the letter has come from Getty Images in London and they have a registered office here. If it is the case the copyright is owned only by Getty Images International then Getty Images UK office have no right to collect on the infringement as they do not own the copyright and cannot be assigned that right by anyone other than the copyright holder, which is not Getty.

If Getty Images here in the UK do own the copyright then the demand is from them, and no VAT should be due.
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Moe Hacken on July 13, 2012, 09:40:36 AM
That's an interesting angle, Couch_Potato. The following is the explanation given in Getty's boilerplate FAQs:

Quote
Getty Images International is an Irish resident company. Pursuant to Irish VAT regulations, legal settlements are subject to Ireland VAT. If your company is VAT registered, please provide us the VAT number before the payment is made so no VAT will be charged. If your company is not VAT registered, the VAT will need to be collected with your settlement payment.

Two things come to mind from this statement. First, that the Irish VAT may work in a similar way for businesses outside Ireland to the way sales tax applies in different states of the US to businesses from out-of-state. The business has to have the right to do business in the state to begin with, and it must register with the proper tax authority to collect sales tax for the state. Second, the language clearly states that the payment is for a settlement. Again the question is raised: Why is a debt collection agency involved with contacting anyone to collect on a settlement that has not even been discussed at any length? The collection agency should not be involved unless the matter has been settled one way or another.

I find it very distasteful that Getty Images is taking the posture that the matter is final without any discussion and that the settlement amount has automatically become a debt that can be collected through an agency.

Again they prove to be acting in bad faith, relying on the fear and/or ignorance of their victim to extort an unfair amount of money for an infringement that may very well be innocent. Worse yet, it may be that Getty does not even have the right to enforce the copyright in question.
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Couch_Potato on July 13, 2012, 11:40:05 AM
VAT is complex in the EU but the link below is the best summary.

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/vat_on_services/index_en.htm

One thing of interest though is when Getty pass the case over to their lawyers in the UK the letter from the lawyers ask you to make payment to their bank account and not Getty's but Irish VAT is still charged. That is something I'd check with HMRC along with whether Irish VAT should be applicable when you are dealing with a company in the UK even if their head office is in Ireland.

I know from painful experience how difficult HMRC can be but when if I find myself with some spare time in the near future I'll phone them and get their opinion on all of this.
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Moe Hacken on July 13, 2012, 11:58:02 AM
Great idea, Couch_Potato! When you call them, you could frame your question as a complaint for unfair practices. Might as well get it on Getty's record.
Title: Re: A new collection Agency working with getty
Post by: Couch_Potato on July 13, 2012, 03:49:20 PM
Yeah it wouldn't hurt to throw in a complaint.

If you're going to harass a lot of people for money you better ensure your own house is in order. We'll find out soon enough.