Click Official ELI Links
Get Help With Your Extortion Letter | ELI Phone Support | ELI Legal Representation Program
Show your support of the ELI website & ELI Forums through a PayPal Contribution. Thank you for supporting the ongoing fight and reporting of Extortion Settlement Demand Letters.

Author Topic: A note on photos that are "public domain"  (Read 15529 times)

bizmomma

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
A note on photos that are "public domain"
« on: May 09, 2013, 11:59:58 PM »
I just want to toss this out there for those of you using photos that you think are public domain.  We have found several of our unique images on public domain sites. They are clearly ours and we even have the original film to prove in a court of law.  It is nearly impossible to get these images removed from these unscrupulous sites.  Be smart and use your own photos.  Hire a photographer if you can't take the photos yourself.

Mulligan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 451
    • View Profile
Re: A note on photos that are "public domain"
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2013, 11:41:57 AM »
As for hiring a photographer, it's sad to say, but there are also photographers  licensing and selling images that they didn't shoot and don't own the rights to.

During these times of digital confusion and fraud it seems the only safe way left is to shoot all your own images... and even then you may get a letter from Getty or a copyright troll or collection agent like Timothy B. McCormack if PicScout IDs your image as being too similar to some generic image in their catalog of millions of images.

SoylentGreen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1503
    • View Profile
Re: A note on photos that are "public domain"
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2013, 07:35:16 PM »
Some great points have been made here... one often doesn't know where these "free" images come from.
At least if the images were purchased, you have some "proof".
However, there are even stories of past "royalty-free" collections sold by Getty Images that have been moved to their "rights managed" system.
So, word on the street is that people that paid in good conscience are being called "infringers", and are being pestered into paying settlements.

S.G.





Greg Troy (KeepFighting)

  • ELI Defense Team Member
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1859
    • View Profile
    • Yeah, We Do That.
Re: A note on photos that are "public domain"
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2013, 10:11:17 PM »
Agreed, you can never be complete sure of any image anymore unless you take it yourself.  The image Getty sent me a letter over was on a persons website and that person put their name on it with a title making it look as if it was their own image and offered it in a public directory.  I have screen captures of 4 pages of Google search results of people who have used this image and accredited it to this person as I did and these are just the people who knew enough that you should give the (supposed) author credit for the image they are letting you use.

I thought I was very careful Now I will only use my own images.
Every situation is unique, any advice or opinions I offer are given for your consideration only. You must decide what is best for you and your particular situation. I am not a lawyer and do not offer legal advice.

--Greg Troy

Mulligan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 451
    • View Profile
Re: A note on photos that are "public domain"
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2013, 10:52:45 AM »
After all the nonsense I've been through with Getty Images and its collection agent and copyright troll Timothy B. McCormack, I've stopped using images altogether.

With that said, I'm expecting any day now to receive a letter from some lawyer who thinks he's clever with a new speculative invoicing scheme.

The letter will inform me that he represents "Stay Fresh Garments, Inc," which holds the trademark to "I shit my pants" and since I've used that phrase multiple times on ELI, his client now wants $1200 by the end of the month for each time I've used their trademark or else litigation proceedings will commence.

Oscar, please start thinking about a new letter program for this eventuality.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 10:55:53 AM by Mulligan »

Jerry Witt (mcfilms)

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 682
    • View Profile
    • Motion City
Re: A note on photos that are "public domain"
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2013, 12:31:54 PM »
Mulligan, I think K-Mart is going to be the one to come after you:


Personally I think it will be a sad day if the web goes back to some early 90's text-only version because of fear of the trolls. I have to say I am shooting more of my own stuff and I still use images from royalty free sites. I document this meticulously.  If I ever heard from an artist (or even a person that claimed to be the artist) I would remove the image and work with them to discover why a site was offering it for free. I also purchase microstock quite a bit, I'm just careful not to buy from Getty Images subsidiary iStockPhoto.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 12:34:03 PM by Jerry Witt (mcfilms) »
Although I may be a super-genius, I am not a lawyer. So take my scribblings for what they are worth and get a real lawyer for real legal advice. But if you want media and design advice, please visit Motion City at http://motioncity.com.

Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi)

  • ELI Defense Team Member
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3354
    • View Profile
    • ExtortionLetterInfo
Re: A note on photos that are "public domain"
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2013, 02:05:13 PM »
or any of the other dozen or so companies Getty has snapped up...
Most questions have already been addressed in the forums, get yourself educated before making decisions.

Any advice is strictly that, and anything I may state is based on my opinions, and observations.
Robert Krausankas

I have a few friends around here..

Greg Troy (KeepFighting)

  • ELI Defense Team Member
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1859
    • View Profile
    • Yeah, We Do That.
Re: A note on photos that are "public domain"
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2013, 02:33:17 PM »
Thanks for that link Jerry, that made my day  :)

Mulligan, I think K-Mart is going to be the one to come after you:


Personally I think it will be a sad day if the web goes back to some early 90's text-only version because of fear of the trolls. I have to say I am shooting more of my own stuff and I still use images from royalty free sites. I document this meticulously.  If I ever heard from an artist (or even a person that claimed to be the artist) I would remove the image and work with them to discover why a site was offering it for free. I also purchase microstock quite a bit, I'm just careful not to buy from Getty Images subsidiary iStockPhoto.
Every situation is unique, any advice or opinions I offer are given for your consideration only. You must decide what is best for you and your particular situation. I am not a lawyer and do not offer legal advice.

--Greg Troy

Mulligan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 451
    • View Profile
Re: A note on photos that are "public domain"
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2013, 02:59:34 PM »
Good link, Jerry. Still chuckling here over that one.

DavidVGoliath

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 221
    • View Profile
Re: A note on photos that are "public domain"
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2013, 05:57:15 AM »
As for hiring a photographer, it's sad to say, but there are also photographers licensing and selling images that they didn't shoot and don't own the rights to.


I've seen some exceptionally rare instances of photographers passing off the work of others as their own... in the nine years I've been engaged in professional photography, I've not heard of a single instance of an individual actually attempting to license an image which they did not have the rights to.

That said, I've had one infringer claim that they had licensed one of my photographs from the owners of a site where they found one of my works. When I challenged them to provide evidence to back up this claim, they had none. I also put my attorney on to the site that they referenced. Each separate party settled in short order.

During these times of digital confusion and fraud it seems the only safe way left is to shoot all your own images... and even then you may get a letter from Getty or a copyright troll or collection agent like Timothy B. McCormack if PicScout IDs your image as being too similar to some generic image in their catalog of millions of images.

Services such as PicScout, DigiMarc and others are highly unlikely to mis-identify a shot - though I'll concede it's not impossible for that to happen. I once had to give some forensic level information to my Canadian attorneys on how I could be absolutely sure that a photograph I found on being used online was my own work - I elected to use an example where I shot literally elbow to elbow with a Getty staff photographer whereby we wound up with almost identical frames.

Over the course of a few paragraphs, I was able to detail the subtle differences in perspective and other visual and technical information that would leave no doubts as to which photograph I had created.

This aside, the solution in shooting one's own work for a site is the best one: just register it with the US Copyright Office and ensure that all the EXIF data is in your file and that you add IPTC metadata to it.

lucia

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 767
    • View Profile
Re: A note on photos that are "public domain"
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2013, 07:48:22 AM »
Quote
Services such as PicScout, DigiMarc and others are highly unlikely to mis-identify a shot - though I'll concede it's not impossible for that to happen. I once had to give some forensic level information to my Canadian attorneys on how I could be absolutely sure that a photograph I found on being used online was my own work - I elected to use an example where I shot literally elbow to elbow with a Getty staff photographer whereby we wound up with almost identical frames.
Why do you think this? PicScouts browser add on makes some pretty hilarious mistakes.

Mulligan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 451
    • View Profile
Re: A note on photos that are "public domain"
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2013, 10:32:47 AM »
DvsG, may I suggest you read this forum more thoroughly before making blanket statements about the precision of PicScout because you'll find examples on ELI where PicScout screwed up and Getty even then had the audacity in some instances to send multiple settlement demand letters even after the recipient had pointed out that the image being contested was not the same as Getty's.

As for making my own images and then registering each image with the copyright office for $40 a pop or whatever it costs these days, that's something I wouldn't do for any image less valuable than a picture of the Pope having sex with the Queen of England on a unicycle.

If you're a photographer with sole access to shooting celebs like Brad and Angelina on red carpets, as you imply in a message above, you're making major bucks with national and world-wide publications. And if that's the case, why on earth are you spending valuable time scolding and negotiating with mom and pop website owners who have most likely used an image of yours without even thinking about copyright?

I can understand stomping on websites or publications that arrogantly steal images for profit, but I just don't get spending time tracking down and trying to negotiate settlements on the small infringements in a digital age with an internet that hosted more than 40,000,000,000 clear back in 2008. The only way that makes any sense is if the effort from doing that earns more money than the actual work of making images and licensing them.

Continuing that line of thought, I'd still like to know what percentage of your time you spend hounding copyright violators and negotiating settlements. Ditto for what percentage of your income comes from these settlements? You've lamented in several threads and messages about not having as much time as you'd like to create images -- that suggests to me that you're making good money in the settlement demand game and prefer the rewards of winning that game to the rewards of creative work itself.

To save you some typing, please spare me any self-serving remarks about it being a sacred duty of photographers to educate mom and pop copyright illiterates by making them pay money for what are in most instances most likely innocent and de minimis infringements.

DvsG, I hate to be a cynic but a long life has taught me that most everything these days boils down to money for far too many people in this world.

That's certainly the case with Getty Images, and the more you post the more I think that's the case with you, too.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 10:41:35 AM by Mulligan »

DavidVGoliath

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 221
    • View Profile
Re: A note on photos that are "public domain"
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2013, 11:53:03 AM »
As for making my own images and then registering each image with the copyright office for $40 a pop or whatever it costs these days, that's something I wouldn't do for any image less valuable than a picture of the Pope having sex with the Queen of England on a unicycle.

You can bulk register your images, once every three months, for published works. Example: you shoot photos for your website and publish them on January 1st. You slowly add more of your own images to your site over the course of the next three months.

If you keep a folder on your desktop titled "Q1 registration" where you've saved copies of all the shots you took and published between January 1st - March 31st, you can then go to the eCo service on March 31st and file an online registration of all these shots for a one-time fee of $35.00.

You simply repeat the process next quarter etc. etc. ad infinium.

If you're a photographer with sole access to shooting celebs like Brad and Angelina on red carpets, as you imply in a message above, you're making major bucks with national and world-wide publications. And if that's the case, why on earth are you spending valuable time scolding and negotiating with mom and pop website owners who have most likely used an image of yours without even thinking about copyright?

Oh, you think editorial photographers are making major bucks? Perhaps some paid staff photographers or a select few elite freelancers are, but the rest of us find it a struggle to make a meaningful income. Although agencies might offer royalty splits of between 20% to 60% in favour of the photographer, actual image license fees have been driven down considerably over the last 20 years in lieu of big clients getting subscription access to any given agencies archives.

Here's an example. Time Warner might have an account with Associated Press whereby they pay a flat fee which will allow them to use up to 25,000 pictures/month across all their outlets - this means print, online, TV - as long as it's editorial. This level of access might cost them $10,000/month, meaning the actual per image license is $0.40.

As a contributing photographer, you might get as little as $0.08 as your share of that image use. Perhaps you'll get $0.26 if you've got a better royalty share contract.

Of course the answer is to cut out the middleman and license your works straight to clients - which is largely what I do; I still contribute to agencies because shooting for them often means I get access to events which I simply wouldn't get otherwise and, once at an event, I can network and make contacts which may yield directly commissioned work down the road.

Also, not every agency client is a subscription client so - on the odd occasion - the royalty incomes can be pretty good. The more you shoot, the more you earn.

I can understand stomping on websites or publications that arrogantly steal images for profit, but I just don't get spending time tracking down and trying to negotiate settlements on the small infringements in a digital age with an internet that hosted more than 40,000,000,000 clear back in 2008. The only way that makes any sense is if the effort from doing that earns more money than the actual work of making images and licensing them.

Here's the point: copyright infringements affect my bottom line. Period. I make every attempt to turn an infringer into a correct licensor of my works so long as doing so doesn't breach my contracts with my clients.

Also, with legislation being proposed in both the EU and US to tackle the issue of "orphan" works, it is absolutely in my business interests to ensure that infringements of my work are found promptly and either replaced with correctly licensed works or deleted.

Continuing that line of thought, I'd still like to know what percentage of your time you spend hounding copyright violators and negotiating settlements. Ditto for what percentage of your income comes from these settlements? You've lamented in several threads and messages about not having as much time as you'd like to create images -- that suggests to me that you're making good money in the settlement demand game and prefer the rewards of winning that game to the rewards of creative work itself.

If I'm not shooting, taking care of administrative tasks, or busy with my domestic and family responsibilities, then you can be sure that my 9-5 hours are spent addressing infringements.

Unlike the alleged practices of Getty, I review infringements on a case-by-case basis and accrue as much information as possible before deciding on a course of action. Except for particularly egregious infringements such as those that are commercial or editorial in nature, I contact the infringers directly and explain why I'm reaching out to them and what my expectations are by way of resolving the matter.

The blatant infringements by commercial entities or those whom are gainfully using my work (e.g. entities whom could license my shots but have chosen not to and/or should be knowledgeable about copyrights) get turned over to my attorneys instead.

As for the settlements? From infringers whom I've contacted directly, it's usually for the fee that the image would have been licensed for had they asked in advance. In the event that the matters get referred for legal actions, the settlements wind up being for considerably more.

To date, about 80% of my settlements have been the former and, in a few of those instances, infringers were converted to clients. Even in one of the instances that my attorneys handled for me, a settlement was negotiated whereby the outlet became a client too.

To put in simply: I'll happily work with people to reach a mutually beneficial outcome. I don't bear anyone any ill will when I find they've infringed on my work as they largely aren't aware that they've broken any laws - I make them aware that I'm simply protecting my business interests and hope that the issue can be resolved without it getting messy (i.e. legal)

To save you some typing, please spare me any self-serving remarks about it being a sacred duty of photographers to educate mom and pop copyright illiterates by making them pay money for what are in most instances most likely innocent and de minimis infringements.

Education is a duty, and not just by photographers. There seems to be a very vocal "free ride" movement online and there's also far too much misinformation going around about the legalities of what people can and can't do - an issue which is exacerbated by the ability for people to have a measure of anonymity associated with their actions.

By our very nature, creatives of all type want to share our work with as wide an audience as possible, but we also expect that we can be fairly compensated for our efforts and that people will respect our rights.

Copyright laws exist so that we can enjoy a measure of protection from those whom would otherwise simply appropriate our works, thus allowing us to earn a living and contribute our ideas and visions to society at large.

If you have an issue over the penalties for infringements, that's a whole other debate.

DvsG, I hate to be a cynic but a long life has taught me that most everything these days boils down to money for far too many people in this world.

Everything boils down to money, period. Like most people on this planet, I have financial obligations and I choose to fulfil them by making a career out of what I'm good at: photography. I have numerous other skills that I could draw on for employment, but this is my passion and what I'm best at.

Mulligan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 451
    • View Profile
Re: A note on photos that are "public domain"
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2013, 12:26:19 PM »
DvsG...

Reading between the lines in an attempt to find the reality of your position, I think I'm safe in my assumption that you are making a significant part of your income with settlements and that you're spending a significant amount of time negotiating those settlements.

You may well be very good at photography, but it's also quite clear that you're equally competent with settlement demands and negotiations.

Philosophically, I abhor the idea that "Everything boils down to money. Period." From my little spot on this planet, it's this entrenched attitude about the almighty dollar that makes the world a shittier place.

For what it's worth, earning my living as a professional writer on the web the past fifteen years, I've raised a family, met my financial obligations, and have had a good life without having to conclude that "Everything boils down to money. Period." And I've managed to do these things without ever once sending a settlement demand email or registered letter to somebody who put one of my articles, commentaries, novels, white papers, or stories on their website or on a file sharing system without permission.

So what?

Well, I guess it boils down to this: my approach works for me; your approach works for you. And so the world turns.

In closing, I appreciate your responses to my questions and now feel I have a clear understanding of your position. Thank you.

Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi)

  • ELI Defense Team Member
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3354
    • View Profile
    • ExtortionLetterInfo
Re: A note on photos that are "public domain"
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2013, 12:37:22 PM »
We all saw how well the bulk registrations worked out in the Advernet case...yeah Getty "won" by default, but were awarded ZERO because of bulk registrations that were deemed invalid..
Most questions have already been addressed in the forums, get yourself educated before making decisions.

Any advice is strictly that, and anything I may state is based on my opinions, and observations.
Robert Krausankas

I have a few friends around here..

 

Official ELI Help Options
Get Help With Your Extortion Letter | ELI Phone Support Call | ELI Defense Letter Program
Show your support of the ELI website & ELI Forums through a PayPal Contribution. Thank you for supporting the ongoing fight and reporting of Extortion Settlement Demand Letters.