ExtortionLetterInfo Forums
ELI Forums => Getty Images Letter Forum => Topic started by: ahhtheletter on May 08, 2012, 10:59:21 PM
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A foolish hobby seems to have gotten me in trouble. I owned (took it down now) a celebrity fansite that had pictures from AKM images. I didn't know this, they came from a forum and were all around the internet. My site, like all the other fansites, had news, pictures, etc. However, this obviously does not matter because I do not own the images. I got 2 emails from the Copyright Enforcement Group. One email for quite a few pictures and one for a thumbnail of one of the already mentioned pictures. The total is near $9000 dollars and I have a month to pay it on their website. The site was purely non-profit, it did have ads, but made $2 dollars in over a year and that does not cover hosting or a domain name.
I should also mention I did have a DMCA policy up, but it seems you need to register an agent. This is odd in nature isn't it? Signing up for a law does not seem right.
Now looking at the census here and reading for hours it seems a letter is the best approach. I have setup a consultation with a lawyer and am thinking of going with Oscar's letter as well. I searched through the internet and it seems they randomly ask certain people to take down images (same ones they asked me about) with no payment and others they ask for a takedown plus money.
The email just shows an image comparison and the url to the image. Unlike some others who seem to show a screenshot of the website itself. Any thoughts on this one? I have looked thoroughly through the site and most seem to deal with stock images.
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Thats to bad about the DMCA issue, but even if you had registered yourself as an agent, you'd still be on the hook, as it sounds that you mau have uploaded the images, which would quash DMCA anyway..Thats why it's best to have someone else as the registered agent, someone not involved in the site. I've heard of the Copyright Enforcement Group, but not with stock image companies. Not to freak you out or anything, but they just might file suit it this concerns "many" images. If I were you I would start doing some homework on the images in question, see who owns them, if they are registered, ect.. The letter may be the best approach, but keep in mind you'll be riding the merry go around with them, and they know how to wear people down.
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I looked and it seems that they are indeed registered. I am feeling the same way about them filing. I wonder if it would be worth while to contact the owners of the image or just find a way to pay. There was a user upload form on the gallery for some time actually until last month when I just couldn't deal with the amount of unrelated images going on the website. I am not too sure how to prove that since it was disabled when they (their bot) looked at the website. I wish I had thicker skin when it came to this.
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1. If you don't have thick skin you'll be in for a beating, it's amazing the amount of people that roll over and pay because of this..Contact oscar, see if he can help and be done with.
2. a user upload button, does not get you off the hook, just because you allow users to upload, does not make you any less responsible, unless you have followed the proper steps to be covered by the DMCA, which apparently you did not.
3. you could "try" approaching the photographer, but chances are good they hired this firm, another question worth researching is if this "firm" has the right to sue on their behalf, unfortunately you have a good amount of homework ahead of you..
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I would like to see a copy of this email by Copyright Enforcement Group if you are willing to share it. This is a new one for us. We are happy to redact the information for you before sharing it. You can send it to matt30060 at gmail.
If you don't want to share it publicly, I would still like to view it privately if that is ok with you.
It can only help others by educating people.
I got 2 emails from the Copyright Enforcement Group. One email for quite a few pictures and one for a thumbnail of one of the already mentioned pictures. The total is near $9000 dollars and I have a month to pay it on their website.
The email just shows an image comparison and the url to the image. Unlike some others who seem to show a screenshot of the website itself. Any thoughts on this one? I have looked thoroughly through the site and most seem to deal with stock images.
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I would like to see a copy of this email by Copyright Enforcement Group if you are willing to share it. This is a new one for us. We are happy to redact the information for you before sharing it. You can send it to matt30060 at gmail.
If you don't want to share it publicly, I would still like to view it privately if that is ok with you.
It can only help others by educating people.
I got 2 emails from the Copyright Enforcement Group. One email for quite a few pictures and one for a thumbnail of one of the already mentioned pictures. The total is near $9000 dollars and I have a month to pay it on their website.
The email just shows an image comparison and the url to the image. Unlike some others who seem to show a screenshot of the website itself. Any thoughts on this one? I have looked thoroughly through the site and most seem to deal with stock images.
I just sent you the email. It also has a PDF attached that they sent.
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These CEG people don't keep good company:
http://fightcopyrighttrolls.com/2012/02/23/copyright-enforcement-group-distances-itself-from-terik-hashmi/
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Great posting by Moe.
If CEG were/are using fake lawyer(s), then it's probable that they're "trolls", and their threat level is therefore lowered.
If you don't want the "harassment" from them, then consider Oscar's letter program.
I'd like to add that since the photos are posted all over the Internet, it would be difficult to prove that the site in question did much "damage" on its own.
Given that the photos are so ubiquitous. In fact WE should be paid to look at Lohan's ravaged carcass. lol
If they were to file suit eventually, the trolls can be "paid off" if absolutely necessary.
Divide the demand by 30, to arrive at 300 dollars in this case. If they accept that, it's a "good deal".
They probably won't... if so, but divide by 20. That's 450 dollars... a "fair" deal.
Worst case would be 10 percent or 900 dollars... not a good deal, but it gets you out of trouble.
I wouldn't pay more than that, though. Those are my guidelines; if I'm "off" please feel free to comment.
For me personally, I'd set up a "corporation" and do all my online activities under that umbrella.
It protects your personal assets when done properly. There's so much trolling going on.
But, that's just me.
S.G.
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How is a hobby or celebrity fan site any different than a Pinterest or Tumblr page? You weren't selling prints or using it in marketing material.
No one can tell you what to do, but if it were me, I would firmly make my opinion known that I consider this fair use. I would explain that the entire concept of "fair use" is a rather gray area and they probably disagree with that assessment. However if they decide to pursue this matter I would make it very clear that I would become very proactive and very loud. I would mention friends at the EFF, news media and government agencies. I'd let them know that you are the type of person that would like to establish clarity on this issue and you are willing to go "all the way" to get that clarity.
Something like that.
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I really appreciate everyone's great support and comments.
I am baffled myself, I have asked many other fansites owners and no one has been asked for money. I know it might just be bad luck, but there are fansite hosts which are owned by big companies. One was partnered with Buzzmedia and I know for a fact they all found their images on forums or got logins (all hosted on their domains). There must be a reason no one has taken them down. They have 2-3k fansites and it just shocks me that they are still in business. I thought maybe it is because of pictures being every where, newsworthy or educational. I have previously contacted many picture companies and in their terms they state that they will not sell images to fansites so I am unsure how it could ever be a loss of revenue.
I know it could be a DMCA issue, but the sites themselves are registered to the companies, Hollywood.com LLC being a big one, and the domains themselves do not have an agent.
I did talk to a lawyer today and they seemed on the fence. They mentioned that it would be hard to prove damages, but it could be worse. I checked my analytics and the main page for said pictures had 6 views total. The pictures themselves never registered on the analytics. I am not even sure how their bot bypassed that.
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The bot bypassed it by masking it's user-agent, in other words the bot was one of those 6 visits, look at your log files..These companies never go after big companies, they would fight back and have deeper pockets than we do, they always go after the low hanging fruit, hoping to scare and intimidate small business owners / hobbyists, non-profits..In regards to the other fan site, we have no way of knowing who has what licenses, and if they are linking to the images, or actually hosting them. I can't urge blog owners, forum admins etc to have the DMCA safe harbor provisions properly in place..It's a well spent 135.00 for peace of mind.
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I tried mailing the CEG and all they seem to respond with now is
The infringement case will remain open until the matter is settled or litigated. To better protect yourself in the future we suggest visiting our Education & Resources page, and you should consult with your own attorney.
I think it is time to take mcfilms advice on the issue.
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How insidious is it that these trolls encourage us mom and pop webmasters to consult "with your own attorney"? As if 98% of us have an attorney on retainer to deal with the many legal disputes (yeah, right) generated by our blogs, to begin with.
No, the point with this sort of manipulation involves the fact that these copyright trolling lawyers know that most local attorneys understand little or nothing about intellectual property law and are going to tell you to settle, that litigating may well cost you even more than what the troll lawyers are demanding.
I just hope all the new people getting their first letter from Getty have the presence of mind to do a little online research first so they can find ELI and educate themselves instead of relying on a local attorney, whose advice most likely will be quite bad.
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Mulligan just nailed it. The intimidating threats are precisely intended to make one shop around for "legal advice", i.e. an attorney.
The one finds out that attorney's are expensive. Yes, almost all attorneys don't recommend fighting a claim that's probably less in value than what their "retainer" costs.
Even experienced attorney's well versed in copyright law know that it's a waste of their time doing consultations for what amounts to small legal disputes for the most part.
So, that's all a big part of the tactics.
On a grander scale, it also concerns me greatly that all this creates a sort of "phantom" economy.
While money may change hands, none of this really delivers much if any "customer value", or actual "productivity" than enriches society, "social value", or business development that benefits society.
The only worse thing by comparison are prison inmates who read legal texts all day and file lawsuits over mashed potatoes that are too "cold" and cole slaw that's too "warm" at dinner.
However, "Righthaven" taught us that people DO fight back... and not every company can just "fail" and go bankrupt like Righthaven did.
S.G.
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That is exactly why ELI exists and a living example of how to defend against lawyers and even go on the attack as necessary. People can do plenty OUTSIDE of the court system if they are willing to change the rules of the fight and go after those where they are vulnerable. Too bad so many people get brainwashed otherwise.
Attorneys are vulnerable to reputation attacks, State Bar Complaints, AVVO complaints, Attorney General Complaints, and ELI listings in Google. There are probably more ways to get revenge and attack a lawyer that won't back the frak off but that is a project for another day.
Mulligan just nailed it. The intimidating threats are precisely intended to make one shop around for "legal advice", i.e. an attorney.
The one finds out that attorney's are expensive. Yes, almost all attorneys don't recommend fighting a claim that's probably less in value than what their "retainer" costs.
Even experienced attorney's well versed in copyright law know that it's a waste of their time doing consultations for what amounts to small legal disputes for the most part.
So, that's all a big part of the tactics.
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How is a hobby or celebrity fan site any different than a Pinterest or Tumblr page? You weren't selling prints or using it in marketing material.
No one can tell you what to do, but if it were me, I would firmly make my opinion known that I consider this fair use. I would explain that the entire concept of "fair use" is a rather gray area and they probably disagree with that assessment. However if they decide to pursue this matter I would make it very clear that I would become very proactive and very loud. I would mention friends at the EFF, news media and government agencies. I'd let them know that you are the type of person that would like to establish clarity on this issue and you are willing to go "all the way" to get that clarity.
Something like that.
I followed your advice and Techdirt has posted a story about my site. http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120515/07173918924/copyright-troll-demands-8500-rarely-visited-lindsay-lohan-fansite.shtml
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Nice! these trolls just love the extra exposure we get for them!
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In my correspondences with him I mentioned the vast amount of support ELI has given me. The more negative publicity these trolls get, the better. I am happy you put that link in the comments. I mean in all honesty who has 35000 siting in the bank for two images. The laws need to be changed to help protect people and not make the rich businesses even richer.
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Wow, nice work AhhTheLetter. That's a great article and will hopefully spark more awareness.
The writer touched on another idea. I wonder if it would be possible to get LiLo's people involved in some way. Like he said, it was a pure fan site that had a positive view of the actress. I don't really think you are in any real jeopardy, so you don't need help. But maybe there would be interest in protecting fans.
Another thing: although CEG apparently has the right to enforce the photographer's copyright (or claim to), a celebrity also has a "right to publicity" and attempting to make money off of their likeness can land them in trouble. If you want to poke them a bit, your next letter could ask for copies of the agreement with the photographer and a release from the subject. I haven't seen these pictures, but I just wonder if AKM Images or CEG has a model release.
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Good point MC, would be great to see LiLO and her people go after the troll!
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For those new to CEG and haven't seen this..
http://fightcopyrighttrolls.com/2012/02/23/copyright-enforcement-group-distances-itself-from-terik-hashmi/
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I did not know about that site. I found this interesting: the chatter on that thread is about trying to drum up some racketeering charges and use the RICO statute to go after the trolls.
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FightCopyrightTrolls.com (FCT) is an ELI-recommended website. I read that website to keep up with our brother-in-arms fight on the P2P/Bittorrent lawsuit front. I have gotten some great nuggets reading SJD's analysis there.
I have been in contact with SJD behind the scenes a few months back. We have a mutual respect for each other's websites and the related work we do on the different copyright trolling fronts.
I did not know about that site. I found this interesting: the chatter on that thread is about trying to drum up some racketeering charges and use the RICO statute to go after the trolls.
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Thanks! I would love to stop by and comment more often, but currently I'm overwhelmed with FCT activities. I really appreciate what you guys do. Publicity is much more powerful weapon than I thought a yer ago when I was a scared, disoriented victim of a troll's attack.
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No problems. I perfectly understand. It is busy enough maintaining your own community without having to participate in others.
We love publicity. Wonderful tool. Court of public opinion works much quicker. We are online publicity whores nowadays. LOL. We also love the power of natural, organic SEO.
Thanks for stopping in. You are welcome anytime. Again, keep up the good work. I am a fan and reader of FCT.
Thanks! I would love to stop by and comment more often, but currently I'm overwhelmed with FCT activities. I really appreciate what you guys do. Publicity is much more powerful weapon than I thought a yer ago when I was a scared, disoriented victim of a troll's attack.
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Did you just call me a whore?? That has got to be the nicest thing anyone has said about me in a long time!