ExtortionLetterInfo Forums
ELI Forums => Getty Images Letter Forum => Topic started by: Greg Troy (KeepFighting) on April 01, 2012, 10:20:15 PM
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Unfortunately until yesterday I had never heard of the Getty Extortion Letters. I can only say that this site and forum are a blessing to all of us who have received these letters, likewise with the wealth of information I am finding here in the forums says that far too many of us have been targeted.
I have spent the last day and a half reading, researching and documenting. I wanted to briefly share my story and what I have done to see if anyone sees anything I may have missed or knows of another forum topic I should read that has more information I need.
I am a sole proprietor business offering remodeling and handyman services, I have a website which I run and maintain. All images on my site are mine and of work I have done with the exception of a few photos in a “How-To” blog I have on the site offering free tips to homeowners to maintain their homes. I would try to find a public domain image to place in the blog. At this point I want to say that I am a firm believer in copyright law and make a genuine effort to ensure any image used that is not mine is free or public domain. Whenever I used an image that was not mine I did make a note as to where I got it, not thinking to protect myself but in case something happened to my website and I had to rebuild a page. I found this image though a Google search which I follow back to the site to look for any copyright notices. By all appearances it looked as if this image belonged to the person running this site as it had the site owners name a hyphen and the tile they had given the picture. The site had many image galleries and the picture in question was found was in a gallery called “Public Gallery” I also gave credit to this person for the picture if you rolled over it on my site. Since it is in a blog it is dated so there is no question as to how long the image has been up which is just less than 11 months, Getty is asking for 875.00 for this. The image in question is from Getty Images infamous Stone collection with 96,448 images at the time of this posting.
What I have done:
1 I immediately removed the image from my website, computer and backup drives
2 Started my research, documentation and response plan.
3 Donate to this site for all the information I have found….. Thank you very much Mr. Chan, Mr. Michelen and all those who have contributed.
What I plan to do:
1 Call Getty tomorrow and talk to them explaining my situation, that the image was used unintentionally and that it has been removed (which I expect will go nowhere)
2 Send a certified letter to Getty with all of my information about the image in question
3 If they respond saying I still owe the money and wish to pursue the claim I will request information of how they arrive at the figure for the image, proof of damages incurred, sales history of the image and at what price sales were made at, ask for proof of the images registration to them exclusively as well as if the image is registered individually or in bulk.
4 if I receive a third response, depending on the tone and what is says consider using the defense letter program.
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You are welcome.
Don't bother calling. It is a waste of time. Keep it in writing, no emails. Otherwise, your general approach is about right.
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Thank you, I will do that, and I just sent you a donation for the site, the information here is just what I needed. If I did not find this site I probably would have just ended up paying even though I feel I am right that there was no intent and it was corrected as soon as it was brought to my attention.
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I concur with Matt-- don't call. If nothing else, the people who answer calls have a lot of practice dealing with letter recipients, and you will be much less in control of the conversation.
Also, I would suggest volunteering as little as possible.
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>> 2 Send a certified letter to Getty with all of my information about the image in question
Why?
Why do you feel compelled to send any additional information? They have made a claim, you have removed the image (as a courtesy). Now your move is to demand proof that the image is theirs. They will tell you it is for sale on their site. Okay... are they the exclusive representatives of this image? Is this image REGISTERED with the copyright office. Although it is not required, not having it registered limits what they can collect. What is the sales history of this image? Can you find it elsewhere?
I'm with Lucia. Less volunteering and more demanding is in order here.
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Something important to note is that being super-cooperative and apologetic won't help.
They just want the money.
S.G.
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Thanks for all of your tips and advice. I have been working on my reply letter and after reading everyone's posts I will remove the parts explaining where the image came from and incorporate the other suggestions as well. Thanks again!
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Good luck and keep us posted!
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I got my reply back from Getty and they are “Generously” offering to reduce their settlement amount from 875 to 625 and of course I must keep all this confidential. What a load of BS. I find similar images on the Getty site and that go for 20.00 bucks a piece for the same size. Again, please correct me if I am wrong but I do not feel I owe Getty one penny since this image was found in an image gallery folder marked as public saying the gallery was owned by this person and this image had their name on under the image along with a title they had given the picture. Everything about the image looked like it belonged to this person and they placed it in the public folder for people to use as there were other gallery folders not marked public.
Good luck and keep us posted!
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Pretty typical scenario, welcome the the Getty Images Merry Go Round! Naturally they want to keep this "confidential" as they don't want the public to know that they just pull amount numbers from a hat.
While the image in question may have been residing in a "public" folder, doesn't mean much, and I can see how folks could get tripped up with this. The site you got the image from may very well have purchased a license to use this image, but perhaps, they got it from google or maybe even another site or blog that has it. It's a vicious cycle. I can only guess they did not offer to answer any of your questions, regarding pricing, artist info, copyright registration info??
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No they did not offer any proof as of yet. After reading through the forums I see where it can go better for me if this should escalate if I have at least made an offer to try to settle the claim. In my latest response I told them that I have found about 300 images on their site similar to this one that are listed for 10-25 dollars for the same size that was on my site (granted these were all the royalty free images). Not admitting any guilt but as a good faith gesture I offered them 75.00 dollars 3 times the amount of one of these images with the condition that no money of any amount will ever be paid until they send me copies of the information I had requested proving they owned the image and had rights to it. What I have asked for was:
1) Verification the image is filed at the US copyright office
2) How it is registered – single image or group
3) Copy of signed contract, assignment or documentation transferring the copyright to Getty for exclusive rights to the image
4) Sales history of the image including pricing.
I also told them I would not guarantee respond in 14 days to their letters as I would reply in a reasonable time frame after I have had time to research, consult and reach a decision.
Question for the group: To date has Getty still not actually filed suit against anyone over one image?
My plan is to keep fighting and educating myself about this, these forums are great and if I had not found them and the ELI site I probably would have knuckled under and paid out of fear and ignorance. So thank you again ELI Team Members and all the other contributors you are making a difference. I hope to educate myself enough to one day be able to offer helpful suggestions as well.
Pretty typical scenario, welcome the the Getty Images Merry Go Round! Naturally they want to keep this "confidential" as they don't want the public to know that they just pull amount numbers from a hat.
While the image in question may have been residing in a "public" folder, doesn't mean much, and I can see how folks could get tripped up with this. The site you got the image from may very well have purchased a license to use this image, but perhaps, they got it from google or maybe even another site or blog that has it. It's a vicious cycle. I can only guess they did not offer to answer any of your questions, regarding pricing, artist info, copyright registration info??
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Getty to this date have not filed over 1 image...Looks like round 2 is about to start.. I'll jump the gun and give you the outcome.
1.they will reject this offer
2. they will claim this is a rights managed images, thus it is "worth" more.
3. they will not supply you the info requested. They will only show you this in court.
4. will probably throw out another dead line and will threaten to escalate it to their legal dept.
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From everything I have read here I’m kind of expecting it. I will keep everyone posted, looks like it’s going to be a long 3 years :).
Getty to this date have not filed over 1 image...Looks like round 2 is about to start.. I'll jump the gun and give you the outcome.
1.they will reject this offer
2. they will claim this is a rights managed images, thus it is "worth" more.
3. they will not supply you the info requested. They will only show you this in court.
4. will probably throw out another dead line and will threaten to escalate it to their legal dept.
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So, those of us that have done our reading on here know this...
- it escalates to NCS
- it escalates to Tim McCormack
- it doesn't ever go to court
I know Getty hasn't ever gone to court over one image but my question is this...I think I saw somewhere deep in a post about this technically not being a bad debt but a claim so NCS can't collect once you point that out to them when it gets to that point. Has anyone ever had their credit negatively affected because of not paying this??
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Also, has anyone ever heard of this happening....someone pays and then gets another letter about MORE pictures? Does Getty hit ya for all they can all at once in that first letter or do they come after you again so they can cash in on the 'suckers' that pay??
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That is correct, it is claim and not a debt and once you tell NCS that and that you are dealing with Getty they have to leave you alone. I too would be very interested in learning if anyone’s credit has been affected by this. Great question.
I have planned for and am prepared for each step of the escalation.
So, those of us that have done our reading on here know this...
- it escalates to NCS
- it escalates to Tim McCormack
- it doesn't ever go to court
I know Getty hasn't ever gone to court over one image but my question is this...I think I saw somewhere deep in a post about this technically not being a bad debt but a claim so NCS can't collect once you point that out to them when it gets to that point. Has anyone ever had their credit negatively affected because of not paying this??
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There is no way, this would affect your credit ratings, if NCS were to continue harassing anybody, they would be in deep shit. As far as multiple letters, I would hope that anyone that recieved the first letter would be pro-active, in removing / replacing any other images that may be questionable. I would also guess that Getty would send all infringements at once, but that doesn't mean that one may get a Getty demand letter, and maybe a second letter from another stock agency like Masterfile.
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I got my replay back from Getty to my request for all the documentation of the image and proof of contract and rights to the image. The respectfully declined my settlement offer of 75.00, and course they declined to provide anything saying that they will provide that during discovery. They provided me a link to the image on the Getty website and stated that this should be all the proof I need of their ownership and rights to the image. They get one more letter from me restating I will not consider paying a penny without all the documentation requested and will not pay the ridiculous amount they are requesting. I will tell them that they are presenting an invoice with no proof of its validity so nadda on any more discussion until I get my documentation.
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They provided me a link to the image on the Getty website and stated that this should be all the proof I need of their ownership and rights to the image.
Well isn't that nice, they provided me with a screenshot of MY site with an image they claimed to own, even tho I have in my possesion the license agreement to use said image.. The only this proves is that the image is on their site, nothing more..stand your ground! and KeepFighting!!
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This is hilarious. That's their proof?
Anyway, they've given you an "out". You don't have to pay anything.
I wouldn't write any more letters... dont waste your time on it.
S.G.
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That is why I have to laugh when newbies spend so much time trying to figure out what to offer on the settlement. Whether it's $50 or $200, it gets turned down. Once it's turned down, it's pretty much over. Just pick a number and go.
This is hilarious. That's their proof?
Anyway, they've given you an "out". You don't have to pay anything.
I wouldn't write any more letters... dont waste your time on it.
S.G.
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Just wanted to share a link to the Copyrights office for the images registered by Getty Images:
http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?PAGE=sbSearch&SEQ=20120512183218&PID=EtaBOsHdrT3INKAu3x-VU4SpUwXM.
use the link above and search for "Getty Images" without the quotes, and use the Search By: Name (...)
There are only 165 entries in total which shows that most of the images Getty claims to have rights over are not registered.
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and to add to this, most of those that are registered were done so in bulk, as in a compilation, which apparently has it's own set of issues. Also just because Getty may work "exclusively" with an artist , doesn't always mean the have the "right to sue"..refer to the righthaven fiasco and see how far they went.
Just wanted to share a link to the Copyrights office for the images registered by Getty Images:
http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?PAGE=sbSearch&SEQ=20120512183218&PID=EtaBOsHdrT3INKAu3x-VU4SpUwXM.
use the link above and search for "Getty Images" without the quotes, and use the Search By: Name (...)
There are only 165 entries in total which shows that most of the images Getty claims to have rights over are not registered.
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Don't worry I have plenty of fight in me, hopefully by the end of the three years they will be glad they don't have to deal with me anymore :)
They provided me a link to the image on the Getty website and stated that this should be all the proof I need of their ownership and rights to the image.
Well isn't that nice, they provided me with a screenshot of MY site with an image they claimed to own, even tho I have in my possesion the license agreement to use said image.. The only this proves is that the image is on their site, nothing more..stand your ground! and KeepFighting!!
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I offered them 75 bucks and the only reason I even offered that is I read in the forums that if you should end up going to court it looks better if you made an attempt to settle.
That is why I have to laugh when newbies spend so much time trying to figure out what to offer on the settlement. Whether it's $50 or $200, it gets turned down. Once it's turned down, it's pretty much over. Just pick a number and go.
This is hilarious. That's their proof?
Anyway, they've given you an "out". You don't have to pay anything.
I wouldn't write any more letters... dont waste your time on it.
S.G.
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I think the copyright troll standard of proof is open to challenge, but unfortunately that would be a complex and expensive legal campaign.
Buddhapi's excellent parody of a copyright troll is a perfect example of how easily an image can be manipulated and how photorealistic the results can be. It's not rocket science, the tools available only require a good eye and a firm wrist for some tasks, and much of what looks difficult is nearly automatic, such as texture and lighting effects.
A skilled image retoucher can take an image of anyone and make a very convincing image putting that person at the scene of a crime. A very skilled image retoucher can make it nearly impossible to detect the manipulation. This kind of manipulation takes place everyday in the media and sometimes they even get caught making mistakes:
http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/05/11037917-russian-orthodox-church-apologizes-for-photoshopping-patriarchs-expensive-watch?lite
My point is that in this day and age, I don't think photography or even video constitute irrefutable evidence of anything. The little thumbnails they send with the extortion letters, to me, are downright laughable as proof of anything. I could return a "screen capture" of the trolls' home page stuffed with porn and Getty images in a perfect visual tribute to copyright trolling.
This is why they pick the low-hanging fruit that has enough money to settle and avoid the heavyweights who will challenge them with legal teams of their own and eat their lunch in court. They also avoid the individual graphic designers because they're too much effort for what they probably consider a low rate of return. They prefer going after the client who is much more likely to be anchored to a physical location and have more capital and, as the letter cynically suggests, may have business insurance to cover them for copyright trolling.
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Just another quick comment here...
Once one of these trolls "lies" to you, you're pretty much off the hook as far as payment goes.
For example, Getty's "proof" of copyright ownership/registration was fraudulent when their "proof" consisted of a screenshot of their website.
That was the the stupidest thing that they could do. They're "experts" in this field, and that's a solid attempt to defraud someone.
That gives one proper cause NOT to pay. They totally blew it.
S.G.
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I agree with you but they did not send a screenshot, they sent a link to the image on their site that I could type into my browser which amounts to the same thing. This all started because I found the image on another site where this person labeled it with their name and a title for the pic making it appear to be theirs and placed it in a public folder. I thought I was being careful not to use any copyrighted images (which I still don't know that I did as they have not provided proof of ownership/copyright yet). If it would not bring the person that owns the other site into this merry-go-round I would send Getty the screen shots of this site I have to back my case and tell them, you don't own this picture, this person does, here's the link to the site as proof, it has their name on it you are infringing on them.
I wonder if the Getty rep would be smart enough to figure out my reply if instead of sending them one final letter I just sent them a box with rock salt and a wooden mallet? I can at least dream of doing sending it though. :)
Just another quick comment here...
Once one of these trolls "lies" to you, you're pretty much off the hook as far as payment goes.
For example, Getty's "proof" of copyright ownership/registration was fraudulent when their "proof" consisted of a screenshot of their website.
That was the the stupidest thing that they could do. They're "experts" in this field, and that's a solid attempt to defraud someone.
That gives one proper cause NOT to pay. They totally blew it.
S.G.
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The less that you say, the better from this point on.
The person that you refer to could have licensed the image from Getty.
All these letters that people want to write aren't always such a good idea.
Let's just hope that a giant turd falls from the sky one day and crushes Getty.
S.G.
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Agreed, they could have licensed it from Getty, or they may have done exactly what you did, grabbed it from another site, that may have licensed it, which makes 2 infringements..and if i wanted to play devils' advocate I could say for example that the image you used doestn't belong to getty, and you used it, it's still infringement somewhere..copyright is created upon the time the image is created.. I see so many fall into this, people say "well xxx company gave me permission to use it.." or "there was no watermark or cute little c symbol" "it did not say copyright in the google image search"..etc...bottom line if you did not create the image, someone somewhere owns it...
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Agreed, I don't want to cause anyone else any problems, I do like the idea of a giant turd though. If I photo shopped an image of the Getty building is that infringement or parody? Just kidding. :)
The less that you say, the better from this point on.
The person that you refer to could have licensed the image from Getty.
All these letters that people want to write aren't always such a good idea.
Let's just hope that a giant turd falls from the sky one day and crushes Getty.
S.G.
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Agreed, I don't want to cause anyone else any problems, I do like the idea of a giant turd though. If I photo shopped an image of the Getty building is that infringement or parody? Just kidding. :)
Unfortunately I have learned about this the hard way and I thought I had gone out of my way to avoid using copyrighted material. I only had a few pictures that were not mine and I have removed them all just to be safe and now only use pictures that I have taken.
On the lighter side, since Getty took a screenshot of my website which includes a copyright notice at the bottom of the page can I go after them for infringement? The image I used appeared to be free and public domain but my page is clearly copyrighted.
Agrred, they could have licensed it from Getty, or they may have done exactly what you did, grabbed it from another site, that may have licensed it, which makes 2 infringements..and if i wanted to play devils' advocate I could say for example that the image you used doestn't belong to getty, and you used it, it's still infringement somewhere..copyright is created upon the time the image is created.. I see so many fall into this, people say "well xxx company gave me permission to use it.." or "there was no watermark or cute little c symbol" "it did not say copyright in the google image search"..etc...bottom line if you did not create the image, someone somewhere owns it...
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no you can't and i would not even mention this to them, they can turn it around on you, that not did you infringe, but you also claimed to own the copyright..
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@buddhapi
My apologies buddhapi, I realize this and was just being sarcastic and a smart-ass (not to be confused with an ass-hat) :) . I was referring to the rest of the page on my website that was photo captured not the image in question. I had no intention of sending anything like that to Getty. I feel very strongly about what Getty is doing as everyone affected by these extortion demand letters does and I tend to say what I feel. If I do it in the future I will try to word it better so it comes across clear that I am just trying to point out how silly I feel some of the things Getty does are. I appreciate all the advice you and the others give that help us new to this form making what could be a serious mistake as this would have been if I had intended to do and I certainly do not want to give any other new people the wrong idea of what to send to Getty. Again, sorry for not being clear on my intent.
no you can't and i would not even mention this to them, they can turn it around on you, that not did you infringe, but you also claimed to own the copyright..
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no worries! That question has been asked before, and being on a monitor, it's hard to see the sarcasm sometimes.. 8)
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Artist's conception of Getty and it's CEO being crushed by turd from above.
Use is legal under "parody" and "satire". lol.
S.G.
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/3762/gettyimagescopyrighttro.jpg
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Bahhaaaaaaaaaaa
Reminds me of one of those cheesy 60's thriller movie posters
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The God of Karma has been eating his fiber...
S.G.
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That's great S.G. thanks, that made my day :)
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Any updates on your case KeepFighting for today? I would be very interested in following this and I'm so glad to be here in this forum.
Cheers!!!
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Welcome doggycase, I have been away for about a week with work and was just checking in to see what I have missed and give an update. I just received my response back from Getty on Friday, they still have not provided the information I have requested proving they have rights to the image, this message was short and sweet and said pay us or we will escalate this to our legal department. I will now escalate my case by sending complaint letters to the Washington State Attorney Generals office and my state Attorney Generals office.
I will fight Getty and the Trolls with everything at my disposal, I am not the easy prey they were hoping for and I will continue to fight them and all the copyright trolls.
Read the forums, most of what you need to know will be in there, educate yourself and ask questions.
Any updates on your case KeepFighting for today? I would be very interested in following this and I'm so glad to be here in this forum.
Cheers!!!
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I know it's been a long while since your last posting on this. I was just curious what has happened since and how it's going now? I'm in the same position - at the same point you were - at this last posting. Wondering what is ahead for me :)
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Quite a bit has happened and it comes down to Getty appears to have decided it to leave me alone. Here is a thread that details what I did along with all the documents.
http://www.extortionletterinfo.com/forum/getty-images-letter-forum/an-experiment-against-getty/
There is quite a bit a reading but it may be worth it if you are wanting to fight this yourself.
I know it's been a long while since your last posting on this. I was just curious what has happened since and how it's going now? I'm in the same position - at the same point you were - at this last posting. Wondering what is ahead for me :)
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Hi everyone, I'm the latest to receive a letter and have spent the last couple of days educating myself for this wild ride. Thanks for all the great documentation Greg. I just mailed my first response letter using yours as an example.
I'm a small business owner who, like you, used a photo which I thought I was free. And now, I'm in the Getty Images racket. I'm also going to write letters to the folks at Washington BBB, State Attorney, etc., as you have done. I hope it gets us closer to the tipping point.
Thanks again, for all of the hard work. It's greatly appreciated.
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Loved you in The Wind in the Willows BTW
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Loved you in The Wind in the Willows BTW
LOL!
8)