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ELI Forums => Getty Images Letter Forum => Topic started by: Mote on June 04, 2012, 01:39:58 PM

Title: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Mote on June 04, 2012, 01:39:58 PM

Hello,

Thanks for providing this resource.  Can you please fill me in on some details of attorney Michelen's defense letter program?  I do not mean to waste anyone's time rehashing information which is already reasonably easy to find, but I have read the pages about the program and a lot of other content here, searched the forum, and watched the 5 part video series on youtube and I'm still unclear on important details about the program.  I can't find much information about what the results are.

I understand that using the program stops Getty and associates from contacting the client.  But, for how long?  It's not clear to me what the ultimate goal and expected outcome of the program are.

I'll ask these questions in a general way, not in the context of a specific Getty letter, because I think this information is important for anyone considering the letter program and it would therefore be useful to get general responses that discuss the range of possible results.

1) I realize this may vary depending on the circumstances of the case, but what are ultimate goals / expected outcomes of using the program?  For example:

   * Bargain Getty down to accepting a lower settlement amount?  How much lower (e.g. %)?
   
   * Get Getty to dismiss their claim?
   
   * Get Getty to go away (essentially give up, but without saying so)?
   
   * Exhaust the 3 year period without a suit?
   

I see that the program includes the first letter and "a second letter at no extra cost should Getty respond to the first".

2) What generally happens after the first letter is sent?  Do they generally respond?  From attorney Michelen's comments in the videos, it sounds like they respond at least some of the time.  Although, the videos I watched are now nearing 3 years old.  Perhaps things have changed since then.

3) How much, if any, of a deterrent effect do attorney Michelen's letters have?  Is it common for Getty to give up on a target once they use the defense letter program, and pursue softer targets instead?  How often / under what kind of circumstances do they give up and go away as a result of the letter program?  Never / once in a blue moon / sometimes / often?


I've seen people recommend using this service for the purpose of preventing Getty and associates from harassing the Getty letter recipient for the next 3 years.  Ok, so the program includes up to 2 letters for the fee and obliges Getty to communicate with attorney Michelen instead of the client....

4) What happens after the 2 letters?  Does Getty continue to pester attorney Michelen for the next 3 years, and if so, what happens?  How far does the $195 fee for the letter program go?  If it covers 2 letters, what happens next?  I understand that attorney Michelen is already offering this service at a steep discount to normal fees, so I'm wondering how much back and forth with Getty he would engage in for that fee, how much back and forth they may try to engage him in, and what that would mean for the client financially.  If the fee only covers 2 letters and if Getty will continue to pester attorney Michelen for the next 3 years, how much can that end up costing to have him deal with them?

I've seen a couple of posts by buddhapi, to the effect of (paraphrasing) "hire Oscar, then they will have to harass him and it will go away", but in both cases he mentions the 3 year period and I'm not clear on what happens between the initial letter from attorney Michelen and the end of the 3 years.

http://www.extortionletterinfo.com/forum/getty-images-letter-forum/2-clients-with-getty-letters/msg6349#msg6349

http://www.extortionletterinfo.com/forum/getty-images-letter-forum/think-this-letter-will-stop-their-harassment/msg6591/#msg6591


5) Is there a big advantage to having attorney Michelen's letter be the first response, as opposed to responding yourself and later using the defense letter service?


I'm sure many would really hate to reward Getty's tactics and behavior by paying them an outrageous amount they demand, but as others have said on this forum there's a concern that you may end up worse off by incurring an additional expense (like the letter program) and ending up having to pay them anyway.  If the expected result is that you'll have to pay them anyway, will it yield enough of a reduction in their demand, beyond what you could get them to agree to yourself, to make it a net gain to pay for the letter program?

From what I've read here it sounds like Matthew Chan and Oscar Michelen favor quite a bit of transparency in these operations, and I was wondering if there are any statistics offered on the outcome of cases of defense letter clients?  E.g. how many settle / are sued / never pay Getty anything and exhaust the 3 year period / average settlement amount (as a percentage of what Getty originally demanded), etc.  I could be wrong, but I'm thinking perhaps that kind of aggregate information does not run afoul of attorney-client privilege, though it would take work to compile / maintain and publish, I know.  I don't know how much confidentiality agreements related to settlements might interfere with that.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: stinger on June 04, 2012, 01:55:04 PM
All good questions Mote.  I, too, hope to see the answers.

I'd like to add another breakdown to the questions.  When I reviewed the letter program a few months back, it appeared that it was focused on those accused of mis-using one or two photos.  Can we break down those statistics into what happens based on how much money Getty is demanding or how many images they are talking about?
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Matthew Chan on June 04, 2012, 02:24:41 PM
We aren't going to provide all the details of how the Defense Letter Program (DLP) works and the intricacies for everyone to see. That is confidential between me, Oscar, and his office. We have good reasons for this. Nor are we going to provide statistics or outcomes of the cases. Given that, many of your questions will stay unanswered. Sorry.

If you need that much information to spend $195 for the legal service, then I say keep your money and start hitting the ELI resources and online forums and do lots of homework as I did.

What I will say is this:

1. You get legal representation for a very reasonable price from a lawyer that is well-known in his niche. However, there are limits to how that representation will go.

2. Oscar is very good at what he does but you aren't going to get a lot of phone time. That is not what the DLP it was designed for. People who need phone time can pay for an ELI Phone Support Call.

3. I endorse what he does. I helped develop the DLP and we jointly implemented the program into the ELI infrastructure. I am actively involved with most major changes to the DLP.

4. The DLP works cooperatively with ELI initiatives.

5.  The goal is to help the client achieve what he/she wants. If differs from client to client. We don't publicly discuss specific strategies used to help the clients.

6. We do not hard-sell the program or engage in fear-mongering. It is a soft-sell resource and not mandatory. It is made available for those who want to take advantage of it. WE don't try to "convince" people. Our track record and reputations speak for itself.

7. There have been almost no complaints about it out of the hundreds of clients Oscar has represented. That says a lot. If someone wanted to trash us, the DLP, or Oscar Michelen, it could be easily found on Google.

(The few complaints have related to when Oscar was handling all the administrative and clerical aspects and he got backed up while being in court. But part of this occurred also because of people keep trying to get free time from him by clogging up his email account. These issues has since been corrected. I work with his Office Manager on this. She takes care of many of the clerical aspects which allows Oscar to focus on the case, client, and representation as it should be.)

7. I am a big believer of learning how to self-represent but most people don't have the time, inclination, or personality to do so. Hence, people appreciate that we have the DLP available at a reasonable price.

8. We are transparent for the most part. But I will tell you there are "secrets" and things that never get published or discussed publicly because the stock photo agencies, their employees, and their lawyers are reading ELI. It is stupid to reveal all our tactics, strategies, mindset, and everything we know to the public. It is our competitive edge.

9. There is a certain amount of trust you need to have in us. I am biased, but I think the work Oscar and I do is high quality and high credibility. Our business reputations are very good. We aren't going to put out crap just to earn $195.  I don't get commissions from the letters. Oscar doesn't need his reputation tarnished on the Internet over $195 letters when he charges $400-$500/hour in New York.

10. If you are a micro-manager and need tedious updates and details, don't enroll in the program. The program works best without micro-management. You will and can ask for periodic updates but if you try to micro-manage this, it won't be good for anyone.

I know this doesn't answer all your questions. But it is for good reasons. However, hopefully the statements I made will help clarify whether the DLP is suitable for you and anyone else that have similar questions.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: bernicem77 on June 04, 2012, 09:37:14 PM
After spending a couple of hours reading many of the posts on this forum I hired Oscar. Let me tell you, a weight was immediately lifted off my shoulders. $195 was a bargain, if you ask me. You can always hire a local lawyer, but what are the chances that their credentials will match Oscars?
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Matthew Chan on June 05, 2012, 06:46:01 AM
That is why we don't feel we need to do a hard-sell. If after all the videos, the posts, his partnership with me and ELI website, and dealing with hundreds of extortion letters for the last 4 years doesn't establish the credibility of the DLP, not much will.

For $200, it is a service of convenience for many small business owners.

You can always hire a local lawyer, but what are the chances that their credentials will match Oscars?
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: lucia on June 05, 2012, 09:01:17 AM
I didn't sign up for the letter program, but even so, I think I know the answer  (or non-answers) to some of your questions. 

Quote
1) I realize this may vary depending on the circumstances of the case, but what are ultimate goals / expected outcomes of using the program?

Yep. The answer is defenitely "it depends".  After all, each claim is a bit different-- so the goals of the letter program are different. Consider two possible extremes:
1) someone is actually running a "free wallpaper site" and got a letter because you had a HUGE number of getty image listed.
2) someone hotlinked a tiny blurry 600 pixel image deep in comments at a blog.

In case (1) the letter recipient is guilty, guilty, guilty and it could be appropriate to get getty to bargain down to a lower demand. In case 2, the letter recipient has done nothing, and the goal should be to shield the letter recipient from communicating with Getty and ultimately prevent them from filing a suit within the 3 year window. (Getty would be nuts to file a suit in case 2-- so the main goal is to spare the letter recipient from writing their own letters, fielding calls etc.)

So, appropriate goals by a lawyer would be different in the two cases and you question cannot be answered by stating 1 sole goal.



Quote
4).....but in both cases he mentions the 3 year period and I'm not clear on what happens between the initial letter from attorney Michelen and the end of the 3 years.
3 years is a statute of limitations for civil copyright claims.  If they haven't sued you within 3 years of first discovering the issue, they are barred from trying to sue (or collect).

Quote
From attorney Michelen's comments in the videos, it sounds like they respond at least some of the time.
If you write a response yourself, Getty always responds. I have no doubt that if Oscar writes they a) are less likely to respond but they b)sometimes responds.  If Oscar's program charged for the 2nd letter, I suspect Getty would tend to respond to the first letter.  But as it stands, they know that an attorney has been hired, and so know that they'd better send a higher quality letter than they would to someone writing their own letter. ( After all, when they respond to me, I don't know enough to spot anything that might be used against them in court should this ever proceed. But Oscar would know.)

3) 
Quote
How much, if any, of a deterrent effect do attorney Michelen's letters have?  Is it common for Getty to give up on a target once they use the defense letter program, and pursue softer targets instead?  How often / under what kind of circumstances do they give up and go away as a result of the letter program?  Never / once in a blue moon / sometimes / often?

Don't know. Oscar would have to let someone put all his results in some sort of database were we coded with no personally identifiable information so I could run statistics for him. (EG: enter some sort of case code with a)date of letter b) number of images involved, c) hotlinked or self-hosted, d) business/ personal/not-for profit, e) domain controlled by letter recipient (yes/no) , f) hired company to make site (yes/no)

And so on.

As I don't work for him, providing me the information to let me do this  would likely violate the ethics of his field. I'm sure Oscar isn't going to devote an afternoon anticipating which statistics he wants to run, designing the data base to permit those statistcs would be done, entering the data and thendoing the statistics himself.

For what it's worth-- if Oscar wanted to hire me to come up with statistics, I would do it for him. But he'd have to figure out how to hire me and structure the task so privacy was maintained, and he'd have to pay me. But I doubt  Oscar wants to raise the fees of the letter writing program in order to pay the cost of having someone create a database so that we can provide statistics.  Though I would take the job if it was offered I wouldn't advise him to pay anyone (not even me) to do it!


Quote
5) Is there a big advantage to having attorney Michelen's letter be the first response, as opposed to responding yourself and later using the defense letter service?
That depends on the specific of your case, the value of your time and your own personality. I am dealing with my case myself because I didn't commit an infraction at all and I am comfortable writing my own letters and dealing with the responses from Getty. (I actually enjoyed writing the most recent one! And posting their response!)  But some people here (ENVL for example) found letters very distressing, and having Oscar deal with it gave great peace of mind.

ENVL would have benefited greatly from finding Oscar initially and having him write the letter. This is partly a personality issue. Me? My personality is different and my situation is different.

In my opinion: if your case is complicated and you are-- to some extent-- guilty of any sort of violation that could result in an award that is several multiples of the letter writing fee, then you probably should get a lawyer who specializes in copyright.
The reason is that in the case of culpability, you want great care to be taken during the letter writing process that reveals only what must be revealed. You also want someone who how to present your case to a judge in a light that is most favorable to you and so on.  So, if your case looks bad-- e.g. multiple infractions, posted on a business site, there is a good chance Getty will want to go to court. Hiring a lawyer early will let you have a lawyer who has continuous familiarity with your case, help reduce the potential for a large judgement against you, help negotiate lower fees to getty. Would you incur legal costs beyond $195 to write the letters in this case? Of  course. That would happen because your case would be one that appears to be potentially much more costly.

In this case, quite likely, the letter writing program would benefit you. But only you can judge for sure.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: bruceh7463 on June 05, 2012, 10:12:41 AM
For $200 the BS from Getty stops.  No more contact.  After a while you will hear from Oscar and then you can decide what to do. Worth every penny.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Jerry Witt (mcfilms) on June 05, 2012, 11:43:02 AM
Also worth noting that in the couple of years I have been here, I have never, ever heard anyone complain about what they got for there $195. As Matt mentions there was some clerical hold ups early on and some people didn't get immediate returned telephone calls or emails. (Hello, it's a defense LETTER, not a bottomless pit of free consultation.) But I've never heard a peep from someone disappointed with the outcome of the defense letter.

There was one person on here 6 or 8 months back that was certain that Matt and Oscar were "in on it" and were lining their own pockets at the expense of others. The interesting thing about this character is that I don't think they even hired, or even contacted Oscar. It was weird, almost like they were here to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt. And then they just stopped posting.

Oscar and Matt point time and time to the information on this site. Everyone has it within their power to craft a letter based on what is on here. That's what I did. But you assume the risks and you have to consider what happens if you say the wrong thing. Also, by now I think all the parties involved in the extortion racket demand letter program are familiar with Oscar's name. I'd hazard a guess that once they get a letter from his office, a fair percentage slink back into the shadows.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Matthew Chan on June 05, 2012, 07:33:57 PM
As luck would have it, Attorney Oscar Michelen authorized me to upload and share one of his Defense Letters against Conrad-Scherer who represents Hawaiian Art Network.  This is going to be another bad day for Glen Carner who coincidentally took the day off from the ELI Forums.

Oscar loves showing me his latest work because I appreciate the art of what he does. I think our audience is sophisticated enough to appreciate it also.

Personally, I think this is pretty darn good value for $250 (HAN Defense Letters are more expensive than Getty Defense Letters because of the smaller volume of letters.)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/96088792/Oscar-Michelen-Responds-to-Conrad-Scherer-Demand-Letter-HAN

Don't you think Oscar deserves kudos for publicly sharing this?  I do. I didn't ask for it. He just volunteered it.  Mighty nice of him since I wouldn't ask on something like this.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Mulligan on June 05, 2012, 07:42:42 PM
Great reading. Thanks Oscar for sharing this letter and Matt thanks for posting it.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi) on June 05, 2012, 07:44:07 PM
Truly a work of art! I'd like to be a fly on the wall when Conrad & Scherer read this! I wonder if they even know about the HAN / APS case that is pending..
Thanks Oscar!
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: lucia on June 05, 2012, 07:46:32 PM
It's interesting to see how Aloha's filing the counter claim of seeding has a benefit to Oscar's client at this stage.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Matthew Chan on June 05, 2012, 07:52:06 PM
I personally think it's genius.  It sends a strong message the Oscar is more than just a "form letter" lawyer and that he is paying attention (with ELI Community help, of course.)

I would like to say that very few lawyers can say they have an intelligent, proactive, and aggressive volunteer online community on their side.

As I said, Glen Carner is going to have a bad day when he finds out about this turn of events.

It's interesting to see how Aloha's filing the counter claim of seeding has a benefit to Oscar's client at this stage.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: SoylentGreen on June 05, 2012, 08:33:24 PM
Great documents..!
Any extortion letter recipient reading these will certainly feel a great deal of vindication.
It lays it all out so plainly.

S.G.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Jerry Witt (mcfilms) on June 05, 2012, 09:17:30 PM
Dude, that is an awesome letter. Good job Oscar! I especially like the part where you seek to pin down the whole claim of seeding.

"Demand is hereby made that your client or that your firm on their behalf affirmatively state that the image involved in this case was not intentionally seeded onto "free wallpaper" or "free image" web sites as part of the scam described in the counterclaim..."

Classic!

No more dancing around. Directly: Did you or the photographer ever seed or provide these images to free wallpaper sites?

Dancing days are over.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Mote on June 06, 2012, 12:53:02 PM
Thanks stinger.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Mote on June 06, 2012, 01:14:16 PM

Thanks for your reply, Matthew.

If you need that much information to spend $195 for the legal service, then I say keep your money and start hitting the ELI resources and online forums and do lots of homework as I did.

A big part of what makes this so coercive is that they apparently often choose to demand amounts in a "sweet spot" that is exorbitant, yet would quickly be burned through getting legal advice / representation (even letters written), and that is considerably less than the cost of defending a lawsuit, which would be prohibitive for many targets of the campaign.  The demand amounts can be a very significant, perhaps even unbearable, financial burden for the targets. 

For a target for whom the cost of the letter program is something like 15-25% of the demand amount, and especially when the demand amount represents a considerable financial burden for the target, I think it's pretty significant whether using the letter program may result in a greater total financial burden if the target will be forced to settle anyway, or if additional fees will be required to achieve a desirable outcome.  That's why I'm so interested in whether the goal of the program is to settle, or if it's not, what happens after the 2 letters have been sent.

As for the amount of information I've asked for, I understand that you have good reasons for not providing it all, but at this point I have only a very vague idea of what to expect from the letter program and therefore it's hard to tell if it makes financial sense.  I know that it will cover sending a couple of letters and prevent Getty from contacting the client, but I don't know if that's temporary and what happens then (e.g. do they realize the "case" is a loser and go away?, are you forced to settle?, do you begin incurring additional cost to have attorney Michelen continue representing you?, does attorney Michelen discontinue representing you and you're back to square one on your own?, etc.)


1. You get legal representation for a very reasonable price from a lawyer that is well-known in his niche. However, there are limits to how that representation will go.

Yes, that's part of what I'm wondering, how far the representation will go.  Even in the "simpler" (e.g. 1 image) cases, if Getty is willing to harass the target for 3 years I wonder if they would just do the same to attorney Michelen and if that requires more response than 2 letters, or if they realize the "case" is a loser because the target will not be easy to coerce and quit the harassment sooner.


2. Oscar is very good at what he does but you aren't going to get a lot of phone time. That is not what the DLP it was designed for.

Understood.  I'm really more concerned with what results / costs to expect.


5.  The goal is to help the client achieve what he/she wants. If differs from client to client.

I'm sure it does, but I imagine the goal of many is to avoid, to the greatest possible degree, being extorted and rewarding this behavior, and I wonder how they make out with that.


6. We do not hard-sell the program or engage in fear-mongering. It is a soft-sell resource and not mandatory. It is made available for those who want to take advantage of it. WE don't try to "convince" people. Our track record and reputations speak for itself.

I don't question anyone's reputation or personal track record, I'm just curious about the track record of the defense letter program.  I appreciate that you don't hard-sell the program, I'm just not sure how informed of a decision can be made with the limited information available about what to expect from the program.  Maybe the program is very effective and that level of secrecy is necessary to accomplish that -- I don't know.


7. There have been almost no complaints about it out of the hundreds of clients Oscar has represented. That says a lot. If someone wanted to trash us, the DLP, or Oscar Michelen, it could be easily found on Google.

Yes, that's certainly a good thing.  And there's nothing restraining those people from speaking their mind, like confidentiality agreements or anything?


(The few complaints have related to when Oscar was handling all the administrative and clerical aspects and he got backed up while being in court. But part of this occurred also because of people keep trying to get free time from him by clogging up his email account. These issues has since been corrected. I work with his Office Manager on this. She takes care of many of the clerical aspects which allows Oscar to focus on the case, client, and representation as it should be.)

I've seen those kinds of issues mentioned, and it's great that it's been streamlined like that.


7. I am a big believer of learning how to self-represent but most people don't have the time, inclination, or personality to do so. Hence, people appreciate that we have the DLP available at a reasonable price.

I could write my own letters, but I don't have any particular interest in doing so.  I'm certainly interested in the DLP if I'm able to conclude that there's a likelihood of achieving a desirable outcome, I'm just not sure I can tell based on the available information.


8. We are transparent for the most part. But I will tell you there are "secrets" and things that never get published or discussed publicly because the stock photo agencies, their employees, and their lawyers are reading ELI. It is stupid to reveal all our tactics, strategies, mindset, and everything we know to the public. It is our competitive edge.

Understood and agreed.


9. There is a certain amount of trust you need to have in us. I am biased, but I think the work Oscar and I do is high quality and high credibility. Our business reputations are very good. We aren't going to put out crap just to earn $195.  I don't get commissions from the letters. Oscar doesn't need his reputation tarnished on the Internet over $195 letters when he charges $400-$500/hour in New York.

I don't question your credibility or reputations or the quality of the letters, I just wonder how ultimately effective it is at achieving a desirable outcome.  I fully understand that offering this program for this fee is not about profit for attorney Michelen, and that you don't profit from it financially.

I certainly trust your motives and intentions, and I understand that there are things that you can't reveal.  It's just too bad it's not possible to know more about what the goals / results of the program are without compromising it.


10. If you are a micro-manager and need tedious updates and details, don't enroll in the program. The program works best without micro-management. You will and can ask for periodic updates but if you try to micro-manage this, it won't be good for anyone.

If a favorable outcome will be achieved, I'd prefer to waste as little time and energy as possible dealing with it.  I don't know what you'd consider micro-managing, or even what would be possible to micro-manage in this situation.  I guess I wouldn't want a settlement agreed on without me or something like that.


However, hopefully the statements I made will help clarify whether the DLP is suitable for you and anyone else that have similar questions.

Well, I'm not sure how much it clarifies it.  I had hoped it would be possible to find out some more specifics to evaluate it.  It sounds like the decision would have to be based mostly on trust, without much specifics about what to expect. 
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Mote on June 06, 2012, 01:21:42 PM
@bernicem77, thanks for your reply.

After spending a couple of hours reading many of the posts on this forum I hired Oscar. Let me tell you, a weight was immediately lifted off my shoulders.

I can see how you'd feel that way, because they'll stop contacting you.  But for how long?  I don't know if you want to comment on how long ago you hired attorney Michelen or if / how your situation has been resolved.  I'm wondering how it plays out in the long run.

You can always hire a local lawyer, but what are the chances that their credentials will match Oscars?

I'm not trying to compare attorney Michelen's service to hiring a different lawyer, I'm just interested in what the results of using the DLP are.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi) on June 06, 2012, 01:25:17 PM
I'm jumping in here, but need to preface that I did not read either of your posts in their entirety..

Heres the deal as simply as I can put it:

1. Hire Oscar to draft your letter and chances are good the issue will go away.
2. get educated and do the letter merry go around yourself ( there will be alot more going back and forth as they know you are no lawyer with 25+ years experience)
3. Hire your own lawyer and see if he gives you these statistics you so badly want..
4. pay them and be done with it. ( and score another win for them, so they can afford more paper and stamps)

at the end of the day their is NO guarantee with any method you chose except number 4.

you're really over complicating this IMHO
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi) on June 06, 2012, 01:28:53 PM
If the program did not work, do you think we would even be here offering it? This is not about making money, if that were the case Oscar would be charing his normal $400.00-$500.00 per hour fee.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Extortion-Victim-No Longer on June 06, 2012, 01:30:20 PM
at the end of the day their is NO guarantee with any method you chose except number 4.

you're really over complicating this IMHO

Exactly!
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Mote on June 06, 2012, 02:06:28 PM

@lucia, thanks for your reply.


So, appropriate goals by a lawyer would be different in the two cases and you question cannot be answered by stating 1 sole goal.

Understood and agreed, that's why I referred to a range of possible results.


In case 2, the letter recipient has done nothing, and the goal should be to shield the letter recipient from communicating with Getty and ultimately prevent them from filing a suit within the 3 year window. (Getty would be nuts to file a suit in case 2-- so the main goal is to spare the letter recipient from writing their own letters, fielding calls etc.)

That sounds good, but I'm wondering if Getty keeps after it for 3 years and if so how it's handled after the 2 response letters.


3 years is a statute of limitations for civil copyright claims.  If they haven't sued you within 3 years of first discovering the issue, they are barred from trying to sue (or collect).

Understood.  What I'm wondering is what activity would be happening between the time the 2nd response letter is sent and the 3 year period runs out.


If you write a response yourself, Getty always responds. I have no doubt that if Oscar writes they a) are less likely to respond but they b)sometimes responds.  If Oscar's program charged for the 2nd letter, I suspect Getty would tend to respond to the first letter.  But as it stands, they know that an attorney has been hired, and so know that they'd better send a higher quality letter than they would to someone writing their own letter. ( After all, when they respond to me, I don't know enough to spot anything that might be used against them in court should this ever proceed. But Oscar would know.)

That sounds good, but this seems to imply that they give up after the 2nd letter, but who really knows?  That's the kind of thing I wish I knew.


As I don't work for him, providing me the information to let me do this  would likely violate the ethics of his field.

I don't know what the rules / ethics surrounding that are.  If it's the case that non-personally-identifiable information can be shared, especially in aggregate, that wouldn't surprise me, but again, I don't know.


That depends on the specific of your case, the value of your time and your own personality. I am dealing with my case myself because I didn't commit an infraction at all and I am comfortable writing my own letters and dealing with the responses from Getty. (I actually enjoyed writing the most recent one! And posting their response!)  But some people here (ENVL for example) found letters very distressing, and having Oscar deal with it gave great peace of mind.

ENVL would have benefited greatly from finding Oscar initially and having him write the letter. This is partly a personality issue. Me? My personality is different and my situation is different.

What you said makes sense.  I guess what I was really asking is if there's any big legal advantage to having the DLP be the first response, assuming that if you wrote your own letters first you wouldn't say anything that would directly weaken your position (like admitting guilt or lying or something).


In my opinion: if your case is complicated and you are-- to some extent-- guilty of any sort of violation that could result in an award that is several multiples of the letter writing fee, then you probably should get a lawyer who specializes in copyright.

That makes sense, but they approach everyone as if they're liable for an amount that is at least several multiples of the letter writing fee.  My impression is that there's a consensus that this is often highly unrealistic and unreasonable and would not actually be awarded in court, even if the alleged infringement actually ocurred.


You also want someone who how to present your case to a judge in a light that is most favorable to you and so on.

Well, if they actually sue, that's a whole different ballgame.  The idea is to try not to get sued, right?


So, if your case looks bad-- e.g. multiple infractions, posted on a business site, there is a good chance Getty will want to go to court.

A fair amount of the complaints seem to involve business sites, but the information I've seen is that no one knows of a suit involving less than 20 images.  Do you mean that if there are multiple infractions and it's posted on a business site, there's a good chance they'll sue?


Would you incur legal costs beyond $195 to write the letters in this case? Of  course. That would happen because your case would be one that appears to be potentially much more costly.

That makes sense, but is speculative.  Do you have any way of knowing how any of the DLP cases (even simple / minimal ones) are resolved and what the expenses end up being?  I completely understand that the situations vary and some are more troublesome than others.  That's why it would be interesting to see statistics, but I realized that probably was not going to be possible.


In this case, quite likely, the letter writing program would benefit you. But only you can judge for sure.

Right, but judge based on what?  Even if I have a simple / flaky complaint, there's not much info about what to expect from the DLP ultimately.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Mote on June 06, 2012, 02:10:27 PM
@bruceh7463, thanks for your reply.

For $200 the BS from Getty stops.  No more contact.  After a while you will hear from Oscar and then you can decide what to do. Worth every penny.

Unfortunately, that doesn't provide any additional information.


After a while you will hear from Oscar and then you can decide what to do.

That's very vague.  Decide from what kind of choices, and based on what?
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Mote on June 06, 2012, 02:20:21 PM

@mcfilms, thanks for your reply.

Also worth noting that in the couple of years I have been here, I have never, ever heard anyone complain about what they got for there $195....But I've never heard a peep from someone disappointed with the outcome of the defense letter.

Yes, that's good, as far as it goes.


Oscar and Matt point time and time to the information on this site. Everyone has it within their power to craft a letter based on what is on here. That's what I did. But you assume the risks and you have to consider what happens if you say the wrong thing.

Yes, I understand that.  I'm interested in the DLP, but I am curious about its effectiveness.


I'd hazard a guess that once they get a letter from his office, a fair percentage slink back into the shadows.

That's what I'd hope, but does anyone actually know?  It seems like there's only speculation and no one knows actual results or can say what happens after the 2 response letters.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Matthew Chan on June 06, 2012, 02:22:29 PM
Mote,

There is no way your questions are going to get answered to the specificity you want on a public forum. If you want to pay for an ELI Phone Support Call, I can explain your options and describe the details of the DLP in a way I cannot on a public forum.

For some reason, you are dead-set on trying to twist and reframe what people are telling you. You are drawing some strange conclusions. It has already been commented that you are making this way more complicated than it has to be.

People have generally been very happy with their respective outcomes. Out of hundreds of clients that enrolled, if someone were to be unhappy with the DLP, I would have heard about it by now. It's effective. If that is not good enough then not much we can do about that. We can't save the world and we can't accommodate everyone.

Your other option is to hire your own lawyer at the traditional hourly rate and then you can delve into it as deeply as you want it.  Aside from having you pay for an ELI Support Call, there is probably not much more any of us can say about it.

No one is going to push you into the program over a measly $195. You can take your time and think about it or just represent yourself.  Many people represent themselves successfully. You just have to dig in and do some homework.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi) on June 06, 2012, 02:23:09 PM
If Matthew thinks this post should be deleted, by all means, I'm tough and will not be offended...but I'm going to say my piece anyway, like it or leave it..

@MOPE based on you posts, question and responses, it would appear to me you may be better off just getting outside counsel and paying full price, this is a SIMPLE letter program, designed to get Getty off your back and give you peace of mind..apparently you are wanting much more...
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Matthew Chan on June 06, 2012, 02:33:59 PM
I am not trying to be insulting here but you are really being a bit dense about this. I actually know a good amount of the end results but I am not going to discuss them publicly. Oscar cannot discuss them publicly because of the position he is in.

I am telling you the DLP is "effective" using your words. But we are not going to tell you what that means specifically for reasons already discussed.  But there are no 100% guarantees and there is a small chance that someone (such as yourself who is drilling down harder than most) will be unhappy.

Do yourself a favor and try to read between the lines that hundreds of other clients seem to understand with little problems. Have you thought about why you are having such a difficult time with this and others do not?

I am only chiming in again because I don't want you to leave this weird impression to new readers of this thread, not because I am trying to convince you to enroll.

Quote
That's what I'd hope, but does anyone actually know?  It seems like there's only speculation and no one knows actual results or can say what happens after the 2 response letters.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: SoylentGreen on June 06, 2012, 03:12:31 PM
I post on the forum quite a bit, although I'm not involved in the letter program.
Of course, that never stops me from throwing in an opinion.

No matter which lawyer one may retain, he/she will NEVER guarantee anything.

The letter programs works well because 99.99 percent of all demand letters that are dealt with here are trolls.
Specifically, people give in and pay because of the stress and inconvenience placed upon them.
It's not because of the legalities or even "guilt" upon the alleged infringer for the most part.
Getty for instance doesn't own the copyrights to the bulk of its vast catalog.  So, all they can do is harass people into paying.
Retaining a lawyer such as Oscar means that the harassment ends, and the likelihood of anything else ever happening is tiny (unless you have a very large issue at hand).

Considering that most lawyers require a payment of 100 to 150 dollars just for a consultation, the letter program seems like a good deal.

Some people want/need what I call "concierge-style service".  There's a market for that, and people do go that route.
However, unless you have a "big" legal problem, and you're actually going to be sued, that's not really practical for most.

Those are just my thoughts.

p.s. I should add that I've noted the humor inherent in Oscar's posting of the defense directed at Mr Carner/H.A.N.
Especially since Mr Carner asked for an example to be posted.  A case of be careful what you wish for.

S.G.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi) on June 06, 2012, 03:25:03 PM
p.s. I should add that I've noted the humor inherent in Oscar's posting of the defense directed at Mr Carner/H.A.N.
Especially since Mr Carner asked for an example to be posted.  A case of be careful what you wish for.

S.G.

Now why didn't I catch that?! I don';t think this is Oscar's first HAN letter responce, and I still find it hard to think, that Glens "attorney" would not have shared the responses that came in the past.. 
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Mote on June 06, 2012, 04:45:29 PM
@buddhapi, thanks for your replies.

Matthew, I've seen your posts and I'm only posting this to reply to buddhapi and explain my reasoning about things that were commented on.  I realize some of this is moot based on your recent posts.

you're really over complicating this IMHO

apparantly you are wanting much more...

I've only been trying to find out what can realistically be expected.  I don't know what could make it seem like I want more than what's offered, because I'm only trying to understand what is offered and what the likelihood is that it will be enough to resolve the matter.  I don't think it's unreasonable to want to know how common it is for the situation to be resolved by 1 or 2 response letters, and what happens after that (in general terms) if it's not.  I'm just explaining my thought process -- I get the message that it won't be discussed publicly.


1. Hire Oscar to draft your letter and chances are good the issue will go away.

That sounds good, but go away temporarily or permanently?  That's the kind of results information I'm curious about, but I don't know if you're just speculating or if you actually have a way of knowing that it works out that way.  Anyway, it seems that it's considered unwise to discuss it publicly when it is known.


this is a SIMPLE letter program, designed to get Getty off your back and give you peace of mind

It would give me peace of mind if it would resolve the situation, but I'm wondering if in some cases it just delays the harassment.


If the program did not work, do you think we would even be here offering it?

Well, as Matthew stated earlier...

5.  The goal is to help the client achieve what he/she wants. If differs from client to client.

So different people have different ideas of what it means for it to work.  I don't know what outcomes people have achieved and considered satisfactory or succesful.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi) on June 06, 2012, 04:53:04 PM
This will be my last reply to this thread, maybe this will do it for you..if not oh well

I hired Oscar
He drafted my letter
He mail said letter to Getty
I heard from Oscar once more than 2 years after said letter was drafted and sent to Getty
Getty offered a "reduced" settlement
I declined
Oscar notified Getty of this.
3 yrs came case closed

Will they sue YOU, nobody can tell you this, will they contact oscar more than once NO ONE KNOWS!

what you can expect:

1. A letter written on your behalf from your attorney.
2. This letter being sent to Getty Images ( or whomever it is)
3.  A second reply to Getty if needed.

End of story..I'm done, good luck.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Extortion-Victim-No Longer on June 06, 2012, 05:04:43 PM
I hired Oscar & my case was solved within days! He is
worth every cent he is asking & a lot more.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Mote on June 06, 2012, 05:23:27 PM

@Matthew, thanks for your reply.

There is no way your questions are going to get answered to the specificity you want on a public forum. If you want to pay for an ELI Phone Support Call, I can explain your options and describe the details of the DLP in a way I cannot on a public forum.

Ok, fair enough.  Thank you.


For some reason, you are dead-set on trying to twist and reframe what people are telling you.

I have to respectfully disagree that I'm trying to twist what anyone is saying.  I've quoted people to respond to things they've said and to try to get clarity on what they're saying, especially when I can't tell if they're guessing about things or if I think they didn't understand what I was asking originally.


You are drawing some strange conclusions.

Do you mind elaborating on that?  I'm just wondering what you're referring to.


It has already been commented that you are making this way more complicated than it has to be.

I'm just trying to get some solid information about how a serious and stressful legal and financial attack can be resolved.  To me it seems more complicated to be in the dark about what to expect, but I realize that a lot of people just kind of like to go with the flow and not ask too many questions.


Your other option is to hire your own lawyer at the traditional hourly rate and then you can delve into it as deeply as you want it.

Yes, I understand.


Aside from having you pay for an ELI Support Call, there is probably not much more any of us can say about it.

Ok.  I'll consider the call or just using the DLP and hoping for the best.


No one is going to push you into the program over a measly $195. You can take your time and think about it or just represent yourself.  Many people represent themselves successfully. You just have to dig in and do some homework.

I wouldn't want anyone to push me into it, I just wanted to get a better sense of how much more effective it would be than representing myself.  Based on the reading I've already done here, I think I have a pretty good handle on the recommendations for responding yourself.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Glen Carner on June 06, 2012, 05:35:51 PM
I hired Oscar & my case was solved within days! He is
worth every cent he is asking & a lot more.

EVNL, on your case, were you made aware that the web designer who created your site was responsible and liable (to you directly, not the agency/photographer) for their actions?   Maybe the web designer was unresponsive, but any settlement should have been put squarely on their shoulders.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: lucia on June 06, 2012, 05:37:31 PM
Mote
Quote
Based on the reading I've already done here, I think I have a pretty good handle on the recommendations for responding yourself.

That's what I did.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi) on June 06, 2012, 06:03:18 PM

EVNL, on your case, were you made aware that the web designer who created your site was responsible and liable (to you directly, not the agency/photographer) for their actions?   Maybe the web designer was unresponsive, but any settlement should have been put squarely on their shoulders.

Yeah Glen I'd like to see you put this responsibility squarely on the shoulders of some Pakistani / Indian  development firm that works for 5.00 US per hour, and could give a shit about US Copyright law...good luck with that! I'm not saying this was the case with EVNL, but a good amount of these cases are through outsourced developers, or firms that no longer exist, not to mention web developers that are unwilling to step up to the plate. I understand this is just another attempt to make you and your company Copyright Services International, LLC, look like prince charming, but it's not going to fly..Besides if you any sort of "business man" you would have this information in your files, as it would be your responsibility to have your "lawyers" communicate this with you..
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Extortion-Victim-No Longer on June 06, 2012, 06:22:55 PM
I hired Oscar & my case was solved within days! He is
worth every cent he is asking & a lot more.

EVNL, on your case, were you made aware that the web designer who created your site was responsible and liable (to you directly, not the agency/photographer) for their actions?   Maybe the web designer was unresponsive, but any settlement should have been put squarely on their shoulders.

I was self taught, I built the website & own it alone. This is not an excuse for my guilt but my actions were that of an innocent infringer. It is still an embarrassment that I did not know better I nevertheless do not believe I deserved the fear & kind of threats  I suffered through as a result. Even so, I was told by Brandon Sand that he would go after my husband if need be even though he has nothing to do with its creation or ownership...In case you haven't read about my story...here is a copy & paste of it from an earlier post.

Battling over the $10,000 you wanted in court, I could have dealt with myself but the threat of 5 years behind bars, I could not. It was the JAIL time that made me lose it until I became so upset, that I decided to fight back & found ELI. No one should be treated to such a threat over one image that is found on 1 of several free wallpaper sites. I'm sorry if this exposure has caused you hardship but what happened cannot be changed & the story needed telling. Here it is again if you haven't already read it.
Quote from: Glen Carner on May 29, 2012, 08:53:09 PM
Matt is correct on all points. Lynne has been instructed to be understanding, professional, and empathetic in her communications. Her email clearly shows this and I am pleased you recognize that CSI is using a different approach to resolve the unlicensed use of the artist's images without any mention of penalties or copyright law that typically is included in an attorney's C & D letter.

I recognize that receiving a C & D letter from an attorney who spells out the penalties of copyright infringement can be shocking. Unfortunately, no other method has shown to be effective in dealing with companies that are using a photographer's images for products and services without paying for it except for legal recourse.

CSI is moving towards ELI's goal of reducing the shock and stress resulting from the recovery process on behalf of the photographers and agencies we serve. This may be naive, but hopefully it's successful and amicable resolutions can be worked out without the distress that resulted in the creation of these forums in the first place.

I look forward to representing CSI on these forums.

I have been following most posts regarding anything to do with Vincent k Tylor & Hawaiian Art Network ever since it became known on the ELI site. Now that Glen Carner has chosen to represent Hawaiian Art Network on ELI, I have a few comments to make. I hope I can make my point as respectfully as I possibly can.

After all that is being said concerning HAN & VKT, I wondered how this was all being processed on their end.
I was pursued for $10,000 by a lawyer (Brandon Sand) that Glen Carner & Vincent Tylor hired as a result of using one of his photos I found on a freewallpapers website. The photo was 300pixels by 225pixels & was on my website for approximately 2-3 weeks.

I was self taught in computer & internet-land & was grossly ignorant of the laws of infringement. Because of everything that has happened to me as a result of this ignorance, the settlement letter & threats I received, I am now well aware & more cautious than ever. I deleted every photo I had thought free leaving me with zero photos & a very limp website. I have since re-built it with the help & permissions of friends & family. Prior to this incident, I have never willingly or knowingly broken any laws in my life except for going over the speed limit on the odd long straight stretch...I am proud to be honest at all times, loyal, loving & respectful & most importantly being the best mother I can possibly be. I am a full time stay at home mother & loving wife.

The most important part of my existence is my son. He is number 1 in my life & always will be. I would give up anything in the world for him, make any sacrifices.

I consider myself fairly intelligent but also naive. I lack education in some areas but have compensated for that by realising there is always something to learn & the more you know the better. I made a mistake in thinking the photo I found on the free wallpapers website was okay to use. You can't imagine how stupid I felt when I started reading about copyright laws. There it was in black & white, I was guilty. It didn't matter that I did it innocently, I was still guilty. It didn't matter that I immediately deleted the photo which wasn't even on my website by the time I received the settlement letter, demanding $10,000 in one month's time. It didn't matter that I was sorry & actually felt bad for the artist this happened to. And it didn't matter that I was submerged with fear & drowning in my own pool of tears. My fear & sadness of what was to come was as fierce as the stance Brandon Stand took on being paid.

I am surprised that I am still invested in all of this since I am the kind of person who deals with issues and leaves them in the past...I move on, I have moved on...BUT! I will NEVER NEVER NEVER forget being so afraid of being sent to prison for 5 years & being taken away from my son! I was threatened to pay up $$$$$ or pay the consequences which could be up to a $250,000 fine & up to 5 years of prison! I believed this was a real threat. I didn't have the money, I had no savings & was not earning an income at the time. I was newly married to a man who had just lost his 22 year old daughter in a sudden tragic death. My husband was starting over financially, we couldn't pay even if we wanted to & no one to ask for it. My husband was angry & wanted me to fight it but all I could think about was what was going to happen to my son when I was behind bars.

To spend just one day in that state of mind was unbearable & it went on for more than 3 weeks. I love to garden, get my hands in the soil to create beauty within my surroundings. It is a place I feel whole, happy & when I tried to escape the nightmares I was facing, I broke down in front of my family. My father was there to witness it one day...I remember the look on his face when he saw me sobbing & he promised me I would never spend one day in prison. It was the first time I felt the sunshine in my heart because when love shines through in the darkest moments, it is more powerful than anything.

Going back in time to when this all began, I contacted Vincent Tylors wife in an attempt to plead with Mr. Tylor but she answered the phone. I could barely speak as I made the call during one of my crying & panic episodes. I told her that I was so scared & what would my son do with me being in jail? I told her I had no idea that what I had done was wrong. I apologised with all my heart & told her about my financial situation. She was very kind & told me that no one goes to jail & advised me to call Glen Carter who is a very understanding man & to communicate with him.

I did call Glen Carter, again in tears, he informed me to discuss it with Brandon Sand. I pleaded with Brandon Sand...many times, begged him to give me a break, doing all I could to prove I couldn't pay & didn't have the funds. I called Glen Carner a second time & received the same former response. After many calls & emails to Brandon Sand, I made one final phone call, sobbing as always, I told him how scared I was & what would happen to my son if I went to jail? He said pay the money & that will no longer be a concern. I finally asked him where the humanity was in all of this & his answer was, "the humanity in all this is to pay the money".

It was in that moment that I became angry & I found ELI & Oscar. One phone call to ELI & I was no longer the blubbering, pathetic & fearful half person I had been for over 3 weeks. They immediately relieved my deepest fears that no one in my circle could release.

This is happening to a lot of people, it isn't right even if the law says it's right when something is advertised as free, it's no wonder that so many people are making the same mistake, unknowingly.

Recently, someone even wrote about feeling suicidal over $700! These letters may be lining pockets with gold but they are also damaging people's lives, especially those who can't pay.

I write this summary of the experience I went through because even though in the end I was guilty for being ignorant of the law, I want others to know they are not alone & hopefully save them from shedding a few tears & fear filled nights awake. I am a strong person who is not scared of much & I certainly don't cry very often unless I am threatened by something like prison. The truth of the matter is that these photos found on freewallpaper sites and such are making artists, lawyers & picscout a lot of money. Whatever way/ways these images are getting out there, either by mistake or intentionally, substantial earnings are being generated by the result of people's fear, ignorance & innocent infringements. Which is worse?
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Glen Carner on June 06, 2012, 06:56:35 PM
Regardless of my position, I think your message is helpful to others in your situation.  Notice how you felt better when you received professional legal help.  This is often (always) the best policy and educating yourself (on and off ELI) about the situation made it clear that you were not going to go to jail even though copyright law places that penalty on some types of infringements.  There are a few aspects of your comments that I am surprised I was not more receptive to hearing when we talked.  My apologies for that as well.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: SoylentGreen on June 06, 2012, 07:17:16 PM
Keep up the good work "Uncle Glen".

(http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/5974/hawaianartnetworktrollp.jpg)

S.G.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Extortion-Victim-No Longer on June 06, 2012, 08:22:58 PM
Regardless of my position, I think your message is helpful to others in your situation.  Notice how you felt better when you received professional legal help.  This is often (always) the best policy and educating yourself (on and off ELI) about the situation made it clear that you were not going to go to jail even though copyright law places that penalty on some types of infringements.  There are a few aspects of your comments that I am surprised I was not more receptive to hearing when we talked.  My apologies for that as well.

I was tormented for over 3 weeks with that fear until the moment I called Matthew & Oscar. One of the best patent attorneys in my community felt I had no chance of getting any kind of a break on it.

Why weren't you responsive when I was in tears telling you I was afraid of what would happen to my son?  Before I spoke with ELI & Oscar, as far as I knew, you could have won in court for the $10,000...All it would have done is bankrupt us as my husband & I were just starting a new marriage & came together without any assets, I tried to explain this to all involved. I also provided evidence that
I was being honest about my financial situation at that time.

The only thing I had to lose was my freedom & the well being of my son. Mr. Tylor's wife seemed to understand my position when she tried to tell me no one goes to jail. I would think she of all people would have responded to the real fear she heard in my voice. When I apologised to her, I truly meant it. But she had me contact you, you know the rest of the story. Why would HAN & Brandon Sand have me believing I would ever even spend 1 day in prison? Brandon Sand however felt I should be reminded that the law is the law & kept me on the hook for over 3 weeks, that is a long time.

Matthew teaches the ELI community to "get it together"...My whole life, I have always been strong, nothing has ever stopped me in my tracks like this.

I am not here for vengeance, only for truth, life is too short & too sweet for that, I am here to help others.
If you are really here to make a difference in the way that you collect, are you telling me & all of ELI that this will not happen again to some other naive fool such as I? Tell you what, this will be my last post where I mention your name or anyone else that was involved. I forgive you all. Maybe if you can forgive yourselves, a greater change will come. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy you are trying to turn over a new leaf by making a positive less intrusive change & while you do that, please remember what I went through & how hard it must have been for me to think of being separated from my son.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Peeved on June 06, 2012, 08:32:45 PM
Every time I hear EVNL's story it makes me want to pound "Sand"...... just for starters.

My understanding is that Brandon Sand no longer works for HAN. Ok...that is a "good" thing. I have to wonder however HOW MANY OTHER PEOPLE had this done to them who did not come forward like EVNL? HOW MANY OTHERS PAID due to this kind of fear?
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Extortion-Victim-No Longer on June 06, 2012, 08:39:26 PM
Thanks Peeved...that is the question...I'll bet many.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi) on June 06, 2012, 08:45:19 PM
Every time I hear EVNL's story it makes me want to pound "Sand"...... just for starters.

My understanding is that Brandon Sand no longer works for HAN. Ok...that is a "good" thing. I have to wonder however HOW MANY OTHER PEOPLE had this done to them who did not come forward like EVNL? HOW MANY OTHERS PAID due to this kind of fear?

Without addressing the "fear factor" one has to think these stock companies / trolls are well aware that a certain number of people will roll over and pay and they will have to write off a certain percentage, which is probably figured into the "demand amount".. I have yet to see an image that's worth more than the 10 bucks as they are offered on Hawaiian Art Networks site, and even that's a stretch.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Mote on June 06, 2012, 08:47:01 PM
@Matthew, thanks for your reply.

I am not trying to be insulting here but you are really being a bit dense about this. I actually know a good amount of the end results but I am not going to discuss them publicly. Oscar cannot discuss them publicly because of the position he is in.

Ok.


I am telling you the DLP is "effective" using your words.

Alright, well, considering how you feel about the copyright troll issue, that's something.  By the way, I applaud you for running this site, which I know takes a lot of work and is a labor of love.


Do yourself a favor and try to read between the lines that hundreds of other clients seem to understand with little problems. Have you thought about why you are having such a difficult time with this and others do not?

I know what you mean, but I wouldn't necessarily say I'm having a difficult time with it.  I understand that there may be information that it's unwise to publish, but by the same token, I posted because I was wondering if there's some more specific information that can be provided beyond the limited information there is currently.  I think this thread would have arrived at this conclusion more directly if it just boiled down to: these questions can't be answered because it would compromise the effectiveness of the program.  But there were posts saying other things, and a lot of my posts were re-iterating what my original questions were and trying to figure out what people really know and what is only guessed about.  I know everyone is posting to be helpful, and I appreciate that.  Sometimes posts raise new questions or underscore the original ones without answering them, generating more discussion and leading to me trying to pinpoint for people what I'm asking about.

I would guess that a lot of the other clients don't ask these questions for reasons other than reading between the lines.  Perhaps some have the same questions and choose to read between the lines rather than ask them.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Mote on June 06, 2012, 09:01:28 PM
Sorry to hear about your ordeal, EVNL.  I can't believe how patronizing and indifferent the response (http://www.extortionletterinfo.com/forum/getty-images-letter-forum/looking-for-more-info-on-actual-and-expected-results-from-defense-letter-program/msg7651/#msg7651) here was.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Extortion-Victim-No Longer on June 06, 2012, 09:05:18 PM
It is an old story & everyone on ELI have been there in a positive way...
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Peeved on June 06, 2012, 09:08:40 PM
Every time I hear EVNL's story it makes me want to pound "Sand"...... just for starters.

My understanding is that Brandon Sand no longer works for HAN. Ok...that is a "good" thing. I have to wonder however HOW MANY OTHER PEOPLE had this done to them who did not come forward like EVNL? HOW MANY OTHERS PAID due to this kind of fear?

Without addressing the "fear factor" one has to think these stock companies / trolls are well aware that a certain number of people will roll over and pay and they will have to write off a certain percentage, which is probably figured into the "demand amount".. I have yet to see an image that's worth more than the 10 bucks as they are offered on Hawaiian Art Networks site, and even that's a stretch.

Sorry Budd...I put the "fear factor" into the equation due to the exorbitant extent from this particular attorney. My personal opinion is that 10 grand and jail time may increase the odds of a person rolling over and paying, in particular the "jail time" threat. It was thankfully however not to be so in EVNL's case! I just wonder how many others it WAS the case.
 :-*

Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Matthew Chan on June 06, 2012, 09:42:14 PM
Your case is out of the norm. We beat the crap out of Brandon and he wanted out really badly and quickly. He couldn't take the ELI heat.

I hired Oscar & my case was solved within days! He is
worth every cent he is asking & a lot more.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Matthew Chan on June 06, 2012, 10:02:53 PM
I don't want you to take this the wrong way but the fact you were so affected only made you an easier target to come after.  That is the kind of thing that doesn't help you and I highly discourage public display of it.

You had the smarts to find ELI, make contact, and hire Oscar.  In a way, you were "lucky" the Brandon was so dumb to try to get $10K off of one image.  That only incensed Oscar and I more and we did more than we normally would to come after young Brandon.

I say things that are unpopular and probably rubs people the wrong way. But can you imagine if the ELI forums became overrun with people in fearing with their imaginations running wild?  Compare that to a whole bunch of people who are outspoken, fighting mad, putting their brains together, and joining forces to to fight back.

I really believe "like attracts like". You ask why you keep coming back even though your case is over? There is some part of you that is similar to the rest of us. AS you said, you might have lapsed in this case but you are probably outspoken and strong in other areas of your life.  Either that or you like hanging around us mean, rebellious, vigilante types!  ;)

I was tormented for over 3 weeks with that fear until the moment I called Matthew & Oscar. One of the best patent attorneys in my community felt I had no chance of getting any kind of a break on it.

Why weren't you responsive when I was in tears telling you I was afraid of what would happen to my son?  Before I spoke with ELI & Oscar, as far as I knew, you could have won in court for the $10,000...All it would have done is bankrupt us as my husband & I were just starting a new marriage & came together without any assets, I tried to explain this to all involved. I also provided evidence that
I was being honest about my financial situation at that time.

The only thing I had to lose was my freedom & the well being of my son. Mr. Tylor's wife seemed to understand my position when she tried to tell me no one goes to jail. I would think she of all people would have responded to the real fear she heard in my voice. When I apologised to her, I truly meant it. But she had me contact you, you know the rest of the story. Why would HAN & Brandon Sand have me believing I would ever even spend 1 day in prison? Brandon Sand however felt I should be reminded that the law is the law & kept me on the hook for over 3 weeks, that is a long time.

Matthew teaches the ELI community to "get it together"...My whole life, I have always been strong, nothing has ever stopped me in my tracks like this.

I am not here for vengeance, only for truth, life is too short & too sweet for that, I am here to help others.
If you are really here to make a difference in the way that you collect, are you telling me & all of ELI that this will not happen again to some other naive fool such as I? Tell you what, this will be my last post where I mention your name or anyone else that was involved. I forgive you all. Maybe if you can forgive yourselves, a greater change will come. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy you are trying to turn over a new leaf by making a positive less intrusive change & while you do that, please remember what I went through & how hard it must have been for me to think of being separated from my son.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: aimiyo on June 06, 2012, 10:14:31 PM
Well one thing caught my eye in this thread---you were thinking of handling it pro se (by yourself).

Take it from a lesson I learned which was I cant defend my own company by law. If its you and not your company you legally can,  but it may be a waste. Unless you want to just pay them to get them off your back or admit to everything and throw yourself at the mercy of the court asking for less of a fee, or sit around blogging about it until you get a lawsuit I would act. The longer you wait , the deeper it may go.

I get the feeling that you do not have the ability to go up against professionals whose main goal is to win at any cost. So hire yourself a lawyer, pay Mathew to guide you or Hire Oscar. The  main thing is do something.

I am sure you are a nice normal person but, this issue is a tough one few can handle alone. The fact is most lawyers who are not IP attorneys do not know the field so do not expect you will know what to do on your own.

Michael
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: lucia on June 06, 2012, 10:42:21 PM
The more I look at it, the more I can see just how much better Oscar's letter is than anything any non-specialist would write.  It's short, and gracious, but simultaneously

1) Does not reveal anything remotely to the clients detriment.   
2) Indicates lack of evidence that the image was copyrighted.
3) Without admitting any guilt, graciously agrees remove the image. (This is the right thing to do and limits future liability).
4) Demurs about price charged.
5) Without suggesting a specific price, requests letter writer explain basis for monetary demand.
6) Requests evidence that letter writer is proper party to pursue a claim.
7) Mentions any information that, if brought to court, might result in lowered or no judgement at all for letter writer.
   -- 3rd party accusations of seeding.
8) Points out courts generally do not aware claims anywhere near amount requested.
9) Gives general evidence that might suggest the image has no value at all and use results in no harm.


I know many of us who wrote our own letter regret that we overshared. While I hotlinked and so couldn't hurt myself much with the letter, I do regret that I mentioned the site that hosted the image. I would have preferred Getty figure that out on their own. (And if they didn't have the information, I would prefer they never found out.)

The fact is: Even with tips, few letter recipients are going to know how to craft the most effective possible letter. That doesn't mean everyone needs to hire Oscar, but you can see that there is value there.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Extortion-Victim-No Longer on June 07, 2012, 11:09:03 AM
I really believe "like attracts like". You ask why you keep coming back even though your case is over? There is some part of you that is similar to the rest of us. AS you said, you might have lapsed in this case but you are probably outspoken and strong in other areas of your life.  Either that or you like hanging around us mean, rebellious, vigilante types!  ;)

No I won't take this the wrong way but let me be clear that my personality is far from that of being a push over. I make my own mind up on matters & all know why this brought me to my knees. Everyone has fear over something & for me,  going to jail is right up there with drowning or burning alive. I had every reason to believe this could happen after reading ยง 1204. Criminal offenses and penalties . My work  & moral ethic, will & determination in life have always been strong. There is almost nothing I won't try & tackle myself regarding just about anything. In this situation, thankful I had the luck to stumble upon the professional services of Oscar & ELI. Of all the lawyers I could have found & fortunately for me, ELI was the first thing that came up on Google when I began researching my options. I'm the furthest thing from the fearful person I became over all this. I guess the old saying applies, live & learn & I have.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Mote on June 07, 2012, 12:55:50 PM
@SoylentGreen, thanks for your reply.

No matter which lawyer one may retain, he/she will NEVER guarantee anything.

I completely understand that, I was only asking what's likely / possible / plausible / common / etc.


Retaining a lawyer such as Oscar means that the harassment ends, and the likelihood of anything else ever happening is tiny (unless you have a very large issue at hand).

This is similar to what others have posted, and as I've said before, that sounds good, and I'll refrain from rehashing the rest of my earlier responses.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Mote on June 07, 2012, 01:10:04 PM
@buddhapi, thanks for your reply.

It seems like you didn't really want to share that story, so I won't say "thanks" in case that would seem patronizing, but I certainly found it interesting.


Will they sue YOU, nobody can tell you this, will they contact oscar more than once NO ONE KNOWS!

I totally understand that no one can predict what will happen in any given case, that's why I was wondering about how past cases have played out.  I think your story may be the only one that I've seen that describes the sequence of events and what ultimately ended up happening in the long run as a result of using the DLP.


End of story..I'm done, good luck.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Mote on June 07, 2012, 01:20:56 PM
It is an old story & everyone on ELI have been there in a positive way...

I realized that what I wrote could be misinterpreted.  What I meant is the response here in this post (http://www.extortionletterinfo.com/forum/getty-images-letter-forum/looking-for-more-info-on-actual-and-expected-results-from-defense-letter-program/msg7651/#msg7651), not here on this forum in general.
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: Mote on June 07, 2012, 01:33:20 PM

Hello @aimiyo, was your post directed at me or someone else?

Well one thing caught my eye in this thread---you were thinking of handling it pro se (by yourself).

If this is directed at me, I think you're referring to me suggesting I might write my own letters, I never meant that I might try to represent myself in court.


Take it from a lesson I learned which was I cant defend my own company by law.

Thanks for pointing that out -- I only became aware of that while researching this issue.


I get the feeling that you do not have the ability to go up against professionals whose main goal is to win at any cost. So hire yourself a lawyer, pay Mathew to guide you or Hire Oscar. The  main thing is do something.

I am sure you are a nice normal person but, this issue is a tough one few can handle alone. The fact is most lawyers who are not IP attorneys do not know the field so do not expect you will know what to do on your own.

Again, is this directed at me or someone else?
Title: Re: Looking for more info on actual and expected results from defense letter program
Post by: aimiyo on June 07, 2012, 02:42:01 PM
Mote yes it was directed at you.