Click Official ELI Links
Get Help With Your Extortion Letter | ELI Phone Support | ELI Legal Representation Program
Show your support of the ELI website & ELI Forums through a PayPal Contribution. Thank you for supporting the ongoing fight and reporting of Extortion Settlement Demand Letters.

Author Topic: A Man of Principal and Not Interest  (Read 26889 times)

Mulligan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 451
    • View Profile
Re: A Man of Principal and Not Interest
« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2012, 02:06:24 PM »
Peeved, super post. +1

McFilms, I appreciate you, your contributions to ELI, and, almost all of the time, the way you think.

Regarding benefits of the doubt, however, I believe you're naive to believe for a moment that the serious trolls have any intention of changing to a C&D first for what are obviously non-egregious and in most cases innocent infringements and then escalation if a C&D doesn't occur (which to my thinking is the sole reasonable, moral, and ethical approach in the digital age for dealing with copyright laws that are out-dated and inappropriate for the Internet -- and thus highly abused by the trolls).

Unfortunately, there's no money to be had in taking the reasonable course and for people like Glen Carner and the Getty Images trolls, they are in the copyright payment extraction business to make money. That's their right, of course, at least until they get slapped down by a Federal Court at some point and end up losing some big dollars.

But as for giving these sharks the benefit of the doubt and providing them with insights on how to better extract payments using copyright laws... I'll personally take a pass on doing that, thank you.

Matthew Chan

  • ELI Founder, "Admin-on-Hiatus"
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2763
  • 1st Amendment & Section 230 CDA Advocate
    • View Profile
    • Defiantly
Re: A Man of Principal and Not Interest
« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2012, 02:15:34 PM »
I am a bit lost to why my name is brought up. I don't think I disparaged you or anyone for answering Glen. That is your choice.  I simply stated I didn't want to spend time trying to solve HIS industry problems.  And you are right, your actions don't dictate mine. It's your time and effort, not mine.

I don't think I have tried to squelch anyone's opinion regarding Glen. Somehow you have me confused with something.

In any case, Glen's time might soon be over. His free ride is over.  Glen has been put on notice that he will have to literally pay an ELI monthly contribution to hang out here. Why should he get free benefits when we have extortion letter recipients having to pay ELI Phone Support calls, ELI voluntary contributions, and ELI Defense Letters?  All of which to directly or indirectly support the continued existence of the ELI website and the ELI Forums. He is taking our collective knowledge only to use it to extract more monies for his business. 

If I thought anyone was crossing the line or doing something I didn't like, I would be more explicit about it. Somehow during some communications or off-hand comment, you or SG might have read more my into my comments it was intended.

Matt-
I have no objection to your not spending time replying. I don't think my choices dictate yours.  On the other hand: This is your forum so if you told me to go away, I would.

However, for now, if  people ask my opinion, I plan to give my opinions. That will include giving informative answers to Glen's questions and also will include giving informative answers to letter recipient victims when I can.  In my opinion, both types of conversation can benefit those on the receiving end of letters.

I realize that my choices seem to bother SG-- I've explained my reasons to him.  I don't want my explanations to SG to give anyone the impression that my decision to spend my time engaging Glen in anyway suggests that I think you or anyone else has any obligation to volunteer your time.  You have no such obligation either ethically, morally, socially or in any other way.

It is certainly true that Glen's business enterprise and his choices are his and absolutely no one is required to donate their time or expertise to assist hm.  But by the same token, I hope that doesn't mean that people are not permitted to answer-- and sometimes if he asks questions, I will be answering. (Well, unless you decide to forbid it. But I have not developed the sense that it is forbidden.)
I'm a non-lawyer but not legally ignorant either. Under the 1st Amendment, I have the right to post facts & opinions using rhetorical hyperbole, colloquialisms, metaphors, parody, snark, or epithets. Under Section 230 of CDA, I'm only responsible for posts I write, not what others write.

lucia

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 767
    • View Profile
Re: A Man of Principal and Not Interest
« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2012, 02:28:06 PM »
Glen can ask. What he gets is a different thing. Everyone gets to respond (or not) in their own way.

Matt--
Quote
I am a bit lost to why my name is brought up. I don't think I disparaged you or anyone for answering Glen.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. In response to a quote by me you wrote:
Quote
Glen can ask. What he gets is a different thing. Everyone gets to respond (or not) in their own way.

My position is pretty much exactly the same as yours. 

I posted because I don't want anyone to misunderstand my defending my decision to answer Glen and somehow implying you or anyone else must do the same.    I may be mistaken but I sense some others (not you) may have gotten the impression I think others must do as I do-- and I don't think that. Sorry if this wasn't clear.

Jerry Witt (mcfilms)

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 682
    • View Profile
    • Motion City
Re: A Man of Principal and Not Interest
« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2012, 02:43:53 PM »
I believe you're naive to believe for a moment that the serious trolls have any intention of changing to a C&D first for what are obviously non-egregious and in most cases innocent infringements and then escalation if a C&D doesn't occur (which to my thinking is the sole reasonable, moral, and ethical approach in the digital age for dealing with copyright laws that are out-dated and inappropriate for the Internet -- and thus highly abused by the trolls).

By the way I enjoy and agree with most of your posts too.

I didn't say that I believed they were going to switch to C&D letters first. I said that is a pathway they could take to win my business back and perhaps stem the tide of negative opinion. For true rights managed images with the paperwork in order, I actually think a reasonable fee would make sense. Buddhapi has said as much too. Your opinion is that this isn't reasonable, moral, or ethical.

Okay, so what's the end game? We chase off Glen, continue to try and help people that find this site, and bitch about how horrible the trolls are? I 'm not interested in that game. If people want to try and effect real change, count me in. If it's just pitchforks and torches, this villager will sit home and have popcorn.
Although I may be a super-genius, I am not a lawyer. So take my scribblings for what they are worth and get a real lawyer for real legal advice. But if you want media and design advice, please visit Motion City at http://motioncity.com.

Peeved

  • Guest
Re: A Man of Principal and Not Interest
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2012, 02:52:34 PM »
I believe you're naive to believe for a moment that the serious trolls have any intention of changing to a C&D first for what are obviously non-egregious and in most cases innocent infringements and then escalation if a C&D doesn't occur (which to my thinking is the sole reasonable, moral, and ethical approach in the digital age for dealing with copyright laws that are out-dated and inappropriate for the Internet -- and thus highly abused by the trolls).

By the way I enjoy and agree with most of your posts too.

I didn't say that I believed they were going to switch to C&D letters first. I said that is a pathway they could take to win my business back and perhaps stem the tide of negative opinion. For true rights managed images with the paperwork in order, I actually think a reasonable fee would make sense. Buddhapi has said as much too. Your opinion is that this isn't reasonable, moral, or ethical.

Okay, so what's the end game? We chase off Glen, continue to try and help people that find this site, and bitch about how horrible the trolls are? I 'm not interested in that game. If people want to try and effect real change, count me in. If it's just pitchforks and torches, this villager will sit home and have popcorn.

For what it's worth McFilms, I agree with you regarding "real change". If I felt that was truly the case I would be standing next to you with my "pitchfork".  :) I just do not agree that the change you are looking for is the same type of change that Mr. Carner has in mind.

lucia

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 767
    • View Profile
Re: A Man of Principal and Not Interest
« Reply #50 on: June 07, 2012, 03:21:48 PM »
McFilms
Quote
For true rights managed images with the paperwork in order, I actually think a reasonable fee would make sense. Buddhapi has said as much too.
This is also my position.   I think one of the great difficulties for stock photo companies is that the reasonable fee to display some very beautiful photos on the web is generally much lower than photographers might consider reasonable.    So we end up with gaps where as far as I can tell, someone is asking for $10,000 when the market value for perpetual display on that image on the web might be $50 tops.

As for the phone issue: If the phone calls were to a business, explained information, provided documentation and requested $50 I wouldn't have a big problem with CSI/HAN/Whoever using the phone.  Likely, in this case, the business owner would respond by saying "let me look into that" and also explain that because their site is operated by their IT people, they might not be able to determine the facts of the case in less than 5 days.   

Of course if the purpose of the phone call is to present the exact same sort of unreasonable $10K demand for an image worth $50, switching to from letter to phone isn't going to make people think any better of a stock photo company.

Matthew Chan

  • ELI Founder, "Admin-on-Hiatus"
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2763
  • 1st Amendment & Section 230 CDA Advocate
    • View Profile
    • Defiantly
Re: A Man of Principal and Not Interest
« Reply #51 on: June 07, 2012, 04:09:52 PM »
No problem. I was good all along. I was just confused at what you and SG were referring to my name about. I had no ill will or disagreements with either of you or your replies (for now. :) LOL.)

My position is pretty much exactly the same as yours. 

I posted because I don't want anyone to misunderstand my defending my decision to answer Glen and somehow implying you or anyone else must do the same.    I may be mistaken but I sense some others (not you) may have gotten the impression I think others must do as I do-- and I don't think that. Sorry if this wasn't clear.
I'm a non-lawyer but not legally ignorant either. Under the 1st Amendment, I have the right to post facts & opinions using rhetorical hyperbole, colloquialisms, metaphors, parody, snark, or epithets. Under Section 230 of CDA, I'm only responsible for posts I write, not what others write.

Moe Hacken

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 465
  • We have not yet begun to hack
    • View Profile
Re: A Man of Principal and Not Interest
« Reply #52 on: June 08, 2012, 11:21:37 PM »
Carner wants us to let cooler heads prevail and move forward with CSI and HAN. He want us to accept a kinder, gentler form of framing extortionate collection messaging, whether written or spoken. He wants us to put the past (and present) behind us and give him our views on how he could build a business model we can all live with.

However, I strongly believe actions have consequences and the past actions of CSI, HAN and VKT are no exception. There are NO exceptions to that rule in my book.

I would also like to address the courage issue. As I said, I don't believe what Carner is doing takes any courage, just lots of chutzpah (or "unmitigated audacity" as Frank Zappa would define it). Many people in this forum have shown REAL courage, and the list is so long I won't even start for fear of leaving anyone out.

Most of all, though, I'd like to say that there is one person who has been the MOST courageous because his courage involves not just talking about the abuse of process and educating people, but taking REAL action and truly standing for what's right even if he stands alone. He says what he means and he means what he says.

That would be Michael of Aloha Plastic Surgery. My hat will always be off to him for what he's doing regardless of the outcome.

Having said that, I do have some positive feedback for Glen Carner. In my opinion, what he could do to improve CSI's business model in the future are the following items, in order of urgency:

1) Drop the civil action against APS and take your $200 fee for innocent infringement. Offer to pay for APS's legal fees to date.

2) Use all your persuasion skills to convince APS to drop the countersuit. I think APS would be more than glad to drop the case and move on. No harm, no foul.

3) Change your model so that the first contact is a professionally drafted C&D with very specific information about the ownership of the image(s) in question, and how far you're willing to go to protect your clients' intellectual property. Maybe hire Oscar to write you a proper and ethical C&D letter to ask for the $200 innocent infringement fee. This will be enough to cover a form letter sent by your staff to innocent infringers. If the other party refuses to comply and/or pay the innocent infringement fee, THEN you can send a specific account of the legal actions you will take and how much money you're going to expect, or even take them to court if they're totally defiant. That would not be extortion at all. That's pure and legitimate copyright enforcement.

4) Blatant, serial infringers you can treat with the present model, and I'm sure the ELI community would even support that. For example, the THOUSANDS of wallpaper sites. I don't think anyone from ELI would have any sympathy for the infringers. In fact, no reasonable person would hold that against anyone else. I can give you a list of 12 websites hosted by ISPs controlled by Softlayer.com. That's $120,000 if you get $10,000 per infringement. I can show your staff how to find hundreds more, right here in the USA, some of them so close to where I live I could drive over and put them in a headlock for you.

5) After items 1-4 are completed, come back into the fold with ELI and show us that you really want to protect your clients' IP and not profit grotesquely from innocent infringements. I will personally put you on my IP protection White List, and I think the ELI community would too. I have proposed to the ELI community to create a White List for intellectual property protection vendors as well as stock photo companies. Heck, any of us could actually need help with a blatant infringement of OUR intellectual property.

If the litigation with APS does not go the way you may be envisioning, you could end up receiving a very serious financial setback and a serious blow to your companies' reputation and even your reputation as an individual. If any of the serious charges you are being accused of can be proven beyond reasonable doubt, you could end up in real prison and that won't work for CSI or HAN unless you have a very efficient and loyal staff that is willing to keep your doors open for a few years while you wear orange jumpsuits and print license plates. Like S.G. said, this isn't a game. It's for real and the stakes are very high.

I know this is a radical departure from what you're doing now, but you can do this. It's really your choice.

If you can bring yourself to make these moves, we won't call you a troll anymore. In fact we'll sing the praises of a company that is willing to revise their methods to be fair and balanced. We'll practically hump your leg for reconsidering your methods and becoming a shining example of how copyright enforcement can be handled with fairness and propriety.

If you can bring yourself to do these things, I will be the first to say you're a VERY courageous person, Carner. It takes a really courageous person to admit that one is wrong and to do something to make things right. I think the ELI community will reward you for doing the right thing and doing it the right way.

I assure you, Mr. Carner, that I am being very serious and sincere about this, and about Fair Elections too.

I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees

 

Official ELI Help Options
Get Help With Your Extortion Letter | ELI Phone Support Call | ELI Defense Letter Program
Show your support of the ELI website & ELI Forums through a PayPal Contribution. Thank you for supporting the ongoing fight and reporting of Extortion Settlement Demand Letters.