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Author Topic: What Will Glen Carner's ELI Contribution Be? No more free rides.  (Read 17406 times)

stinger

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Re: What Will Glen Carner's ELI Contribution Be? No more free rides.
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2012, 03:38:27 PM »
Absolutely Right Khan!  I second that.

Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi)

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Re: What Will Glen Carner's ELI Contribution Be? No more free rides.
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2012, 03:40:06 PM »
Ok Glen. Why is it that you do not send first a " Cease" letter too ????

EXACTLY my first thought, innocent infringers and others are not getting a "second chance".. any lawyer should know what is over the top and any lawyer should at the very least do a little research into the case...ya know is this image really worth this much?..but again most of these new lawyers only see dollar signs..
Most questions have already been addressed in the forums, get yourself educated before making decisions.

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SoylentGreen

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Re: What Will Glen Carner's ELI Contribution Be? No more free rides.
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2012, 03:44:54 PM »
I'm sure that Matt/Oscar will say that it's not ELI's job to "educate" lawyers.
That's what law school is for, along with all the ethics courses.
In any case, once a lawyer has broken legal/ethics laws, and it lands on ELI's doorstep, the damage is already done.
I see some of the suggestions given on this forum these days, and I really have to just shake my head.

The suggestions of "making nice-sounding phone calls", and "warn lawyers when they cross the line, after the damage is done"?
But, let's just ignore all the laws that are in place?
What planet are these people even on?

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0jz3novys1r8ffrs.jpg

S.G.


lucia

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Re: What Will Glen Carner's ELI Contribution Be? No more free rides.
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2012, 03:58:15 PM »
Glen,
Quote
The "ELI Attorney Warning System."  What that would be is when you see a "new" attorney whose letter appears extreme or is working for a stock photo agency, that you contact them (or me who would be happy to follow up them) and have a "ELI" (Extreme Lawyer Intervention) to warn them about what they are doing and how if you see another letter from them in the future that it will be posted on Scribe and ELI.  It seems harsh to potentially damage the career of an new attorney (for life on Google) because they sent out a letter you feel is inappropriate.   Wouldn't a "one strike" rule be appropriate for them?  They should at least have the choice of continuing to work for the agency and pay ELI's consequences, or to stop doing this work knowing that ELI will be watching and taking action if they continue.

My first reaction is agreeing to would not be fair to letter recipients.   One of the difficulties for recipients is that until they recieve a letter, recipients are operating in a total information vaccuum.  If they recieve an outrageous letter, they have no way of knowing whether others have recieved similar letters, how the letter they recieved stacks up relative to other letters, or what sorts of outcomes to expect for different sorts of responses.  Posting letters fills the knowledge gap for these people, inform them they are not the only ones to recieve these.  If all the outrageous ones are kept off the web, letter recipients will have little way learning about the issue.

Another difficulty is you when you request "ELI" contact you, you are actually asking some ELI person to perform an uncompensated service to benefit for you and your attorney. 

A third difficulty is that we all strongly suspect that for every letter posted at ELI, numerous other letters are never sent to Matt. So, it's quite possible that the 'first time' offender has sent out several other similar letters. None of use participating at ELI have anyway of knowing.

The fourth difficulty is: This won't work. The reason it won't work is that even if ELI promisses not to post these things, there is nothing to prevent the letter recipients themselves from posting them.  After that, people will link saying "look what I posted".

It's true that it may seem harsh to damage the career or a new attorney for life. But these letters are often harsh and can damage the lives and relationships of letter recipients.

I think a better way to protect the newbie attorneys is for clients like you who hire them  to take two steps:

1) Inform them of the dangers of sending out letters that are too harsh. Show them examples that went overboard and

2) to review the letters to determine whether the monetary demand is clealry overboard, whether the language is too extreme and so forth.   Some letters are sent out on your behalf, and if you are worried about the career of the young attorney who has entered into a business relationship with you, you are the one who needs to take steps to review the letter and make sure that it is not outrageous. 

Asking ELI to take on the burden of doing this task for you seems inappropriate.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 04:02:51 PM by lucia »

Extortion-Victim-No Longer

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Re: What Will Glen Carner's ELI Contribution Be? No more free rides.
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2012, 03:58:36 PM »
If a certain lawyer is warned, they would most likely not take the case? If they did take the case, would that change the amount of the settlement demand or simply the way it is written. How would this warning assist those seeking collection? This idea would hinder the bottom line $$$$$$$$$$$$$. Warning a lawyer who has ulterior motives to threaten & instil fear for the purpose of making a lot of money $$$$$$$$$$$$$. Bottom line is one must choose to stand for what is ethical & what is right whether he/she is a plumber, teacher, cashier or a lawyer. Why should they be for-warned? All one needs is a conscience not a WARNING!
Kim

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Re: What Will Glen Carner's ELI Contribution Be? No more free rides.
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2012, 04:02:07 PM »
Glen,
Quote
The "ELI Attorney Warning System."  What that would be is when you see a "new" attorney whose letter appears extreme or is working for a stock photo agency, that you contact them (or me who would be happy to follow up them) and have a "ELI" (Extreme Lawyer Intervention) to warn them about what they are doing and how if you see another letter from them in the future that it will be posted on Scribe and ELI.  It seems harsh to potentially damage the career of an new attorney (for life on Google) because they sent out a letter you feel is inappropriate.   Wouldn't a "one strike" rule be appropriate for them?  They should at least have the choice of continuing to work for the agency and pay ELI's consequences, or to stop doing this work knowing that ELI will be watching and taking action if they continue.

My first reaction is agreeing to would not be fair to letter recipients.   One of the difficulties for recipients is that until they recieve a letter, recipients are operating in a total information vaccuum.  If they recieve an outrageous letter, they have no way of knowing whether others have recieved similar letters, how the letter they recieved stacks up relative to other letters, or what sorts of outcomes to expect for different sorts of responses.  Posting letters fills the knowledge gap for these people, inform them they are not the only ones to recieve these.  If all the outrageous ones are kept off the web, letter recipients will have little way learning about the issue.

Another difficulty is you when you request "ELI" contact you, you are actually asking some ELI person to perform an uncompensated service to benefit for you and your attorney. 

A third difficulty is that we all strongly suspect that for every letter posted at ELI, numerous other letters are never sent to Matt. So, it's quite possible that the 'first time' offender has sent out several other similar letters. None of use participating at ELI have anyway of knowing.

The fourth difficulty is: This won't work. The reason it won't work is that even if ELI promisses not to post these things, there is nothing to prevent the letter recipients themselves from posting them.  After that, people will link saying "look what I posted".

It's true that it may seem harsh to damage the career or a new attorney for life. But these letters are often harsh and can damage the lives and relationships of letter recipients. 

I think a better way to protect the newbie attorneys is for clients like you who hire them  to take two steps:

1) Inform themof the dangers of sending out letters that are too harsh. Show them examples that went overboard and

2)to review the letters to determine whether the monetary demand is clealry overboard, whether the language is too extreme and so forth.   Some letters are sent out on your behalf, and if you are worried about the career of the young attorney who has entered into a business relationship with you, you are the one who needs to take steps to review the letter and make sure that it is not outrageous. 

Asking ELI to take on the burden of doing this task for you seems inappropriate.

Very very very well said Lucia!
Kim

Mulligan

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Re: What Will Glen Carner's ELI Contribution Be? No more free rides.
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2012, 04:12:22 PM »
If a lawyer is confident that his demand letters are legally, ethically, and morally correct, he should have no reason to fear a public examination of those letters. Of course that presupposes ethical and moral behavior on the part of the attorney, which near as I can tell isn't a given, especially with the copyright trolls in the profession.

None of these copyright trolling extortionists and their lawyers deserve a second chance. They know what they're doing. They're behaving like bullies for a quick buck. They deserve every bit of blow back that comes their way. Every bit. That blow back needs to come hard and fast the minute they dare try to pull off one of their schemes. Send these trolls running and screaming back into their dank and dirty caves where they belong.

SoylentGreen

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Re: What Will Glen Carner's ELI Contribution Be? No more free rides.
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2012, 04:21:56 PM »
I'm with Mulligan here.
Law schools cover all this stuff in quite a bit of detail.

We're sort of assuming that these rogue lawyers are somehow nice people that made mistakes.
Law school teaches ALL this stuff.  Benefit of the doubt doesn't even come into it.

It's like being a doctor.  You can't take out a kidney when somebody has a blown spleen.
There are consequences.

S.G.


Peeved

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Re: What Will Glen Carner's ELI Contribution Be? No more free rides.
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2012, 04:23:34 PM »
Agreed!

I can't wait to see Mulligan's "Expose"!

LOL....
 ;D

Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi)

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Re: What Will Glen Carner's ELI Contribution Be? No more free rides.
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2012, 04:26:05 PM »

What?1 you want mulligan to expose himself?!   you dirty little peev!
Agreed!

I can't wait to see Mulligan's "Expose"!

LOL....
 ;D
Most questions have already been addressed in the forums, get yourself educated before making decisions.

Any advice is strictly that, and anything I may state is based on my opinions, and observations.
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Peeved

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Re: What Will Glen Carner's ELI Contribution Be? No more free rides.
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2012, 04:30:01 PM »

What?1 you want mulligan to expose himself?!   you dirty little peev!
Agreed!

I can't wait to see Mulligan's "Expose"!

LOL....
 ;D

LOL.....leave it to Bob.....

Exposé ...as in......(journalism), a form of investigative journalism

 ::)
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 11:53:27 PM by Peeved »

Extortion-Victim-No Longer

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Re: What Will Glen Carner's ELI Contribution Be? No more free rides.
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2012, 04:30:50 PM »
AGREED - no warnings!
As Matthew stated, Oscar teaches his students to take on a case if & only they are willing to stand behind it in the public eye.
Kim

Jerry Witt (mcfilms)

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Re: What Will Glen Carner's ELI Contribution Be? No more free rides.
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2012, 04:40:22 PM »
First, I wanted to let everyone know that Matt and I just had a delightful conversation. I always enjoy talking to him, even thought we might not always be 100% sympatico. I'm going to let him update everyone about the "free ride" issue. Let me just say that ELI is a private venture and Matthew is the person responsible for the web site, hosting, maintenance and building it up over the years. It truly is "his house" and he has every right to create the rules on this forum. I'll just say that I'll keep posting on here as long as everybody else is free to do so (or until I'm told to stop :)  ).

Regarding Glen's recent suggestion, doesn't it seem like just the sort of thing you'd want to put out there if you were defending a Extortion Letter counter suit? You'd be able to say, "Look, your honor, I am out trying to find solutions to this. I put forth the idea that these ELI people notify an esteemed attorney before they complain about them. Those savages." Seriously?

As has already been pointed out, how about YOU warn the attorney, or better yet, why not calculate a reasonable claim in the first place? And why exactly is posting the information in these demand letters and who is behind them such a big secret that it is capable of ruining reputations?
Although I may be a super-genius, I am not a lawyer. So take my scribblings for what they are worth and get a real lawyer for real legal advice. But if you want media and design advice, please visit Motion City at http://motioncity.com.

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Re: What Will Glen Carner's ELI Contribution Be? No more free rides.
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2012, 04:41:28 PM »
Just so everyone knows, mcfilms (Jerry) and I had a long talk about this.  I made my case and shared a lot of things he may not have been aware for.  He made his case favoring free speech and I understand his sentiments except that ELI isn't "public property".

At the end of the day ELI is private property (mine) and a private forum that I do my best to open up to most people. But Glen is here to advance his PR cause (HAN & CSI) using the private platform.  We engage in a lot of "marketing" efforts here to expand the ELI reach. I do most of the heavy-lifting in that department.  If Glen wants to start his own forum at CSI or HAN website, he can and he can post his message to his heart's content.  If people want to engage him on his website or private email, I can't stop him.

I put too much of my time and energy into ELI for some "outsider" to come in and to pedal his propaganda however well intentioned it might be.  These forums are primarily for letter recipients NOT the letter extortionists.  ELI is a huge platform and he knows it. That is why he is here.  Otherwise, he could have started his own blog and forum and talk to his community (and still can).  He knows we have the readership and this is where it matters. Why should he get a free ride when his letter victims have to pay?  That make no sense to me.

I don't think Glen is fundamentally evil but his goals are incongruent with ELI which focuses on reporting and defending against the stock photo industry and similar extortionists.  If he cares enough to be here, he will make an ELI contribution. If not, he is all talk which is just fine.  But that simply means he wants to resume fleecing extortion letter recipients. Talk is cheap.

ELI requires financial support.  Oscar pays, BuddhaPi pays, and I pay to keep ELI running. Why should Glen NOT pay when he represents his own business and stands to gain from pedaling his propaganda on ELI.  Plenty of forums to post on, why here?

I told Jerry I did not want to lose him as an ELI Defense Team member.  The position admittedly has crappy pay and benefits. No doubt about it. I understood if Jerry would ultimately want to remove his association with ELI but I would rather he didn't.

I promised Jerry I would give this more time until the end of the month and Glen can continue communicating what he needs or wants to for now.  That is more than enough time for Glen to get the feedback he needs from everyone and impart whatever message he wants from the ELI community.

That is where I am currently at with this. I have done this out of my high respect for Jerry to not be too impulsive. But I do not see myself allowing Glen to be here past June 30. For me, it is irrelevant if he his here or not. We will continue the mission as we have been.

At some point, I will probably do a video to better elaborate my thoughts. I trust Jerry will chime in soon now that he has spoken with me.

Matthew,

The only thing I feel more passionately about than extortion is free speech. I've always said, your forum, your rules. But if you decide anyone is required to pay money to participate on these forums, I will have to resign as a ELI team member. I was the one that initially emailed and asked Glen to join these forums. We were all quite surprised when he showed up. Now, suddenly he is a huge burden? Frankly I don't get it, but I suspect my goals and those of this forum have somehow diverged.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 05:54:35 PM by Matthew Chan »
I'm a non-lawyer but not legally ignorant either. Under the 1st Amendment, I have the right to post facts & opinions using rhetorical hyperbole, colloquialisms, metaphors, parody, snark, or epithets. Under Section 230 of CDA, I'm only responsible for posts I write, not what others write.

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Re: What Will Glen Carner's ELI Contribution Be? No more free rides.
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2012, 04:45:52 PM »
Jerry (mcfilms) has convinced me to slow this down a bit. I have elected to slow it down to June 30 to give enough time for Glen to engage ELI and vice-versa. That is more than enough time to get what everyone needs to be said out there. I cannot foresee going past this date but Jerry and I will be in touch to revisit this in the weeks to come.

My vote goes with McFilms to some degree, sorry Matt. I understand in some ways Glen is like a spammer (advertiser) but if not too excessive seems ok. Also people here have asked him these questions. Well its your forum and he has the gold rules.
I'm a non-lawyer but not legally ignorant either. Under the 1st Amendment, I have the right to post facts & opinions using rhetorical hyperbole, colloquialisms, metaphors, parody, snark, or epithets. Under Section 230 of CDA, I'm only responsible for posts I write, not what others write.

 

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