ExtortionLetterInfo Forums

ELI Forums => Higbee Associates Letter & Lawsuits Forum => Topic started by: GWB1 on May 13, 2017, 02:03:04 PM

Title: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: GWB1 on May 13, 2017, 02:03:04 PM
I got a letter from Higbee and Associates telling me I used someone's picture on our website without his authorization.  They want $3000 to settle this.  I looked at the picture and found no evidence whatsoever that it is copyrighted or that it needed to be paid for by anyone.  It was on google images.  We are a very small ministry and it was a picture of a deer for my wife's blog.  I'd like to verify that this picture is legitimately copyrighted by this person before I proceed to respond to Higbee's demand for payment.  They did send me a copy of the certificate of registration but when I typed it in on one of the websites that searches for this (not sure it's legitimate) it showed that there was no copyright for this picture.  Any suggestions would be very helpful.  By the way, I found this person who they claim is the copyright owner of the picture on Facebook.  Would it be unwise for me to contact him directly and see if he owns this and hopefully he will be willing to not charge me or lower the fee?  Thanks.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi) on May 13, 2017, 04:13:16 PM
search here: http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?DB=local&PAGE=First

search for the photographers name.. I would not contact Higbee of the artist until you get more facts under your belt.. Higbee will likely get paid a percentage of the demand, but the artist may not be willing to budge either....if you grabbed the image from a "google search", be sure to go through your site and remove any other images you may have obtained without a license, lest you get more letters fro other trolls..
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: GWB1 on May 13, 2017, 07:27:01 PM
Thanks for your reply.  I put the certificate number in the link you gave me and neither his name or his registration certificate number comes up, however, after doing some more digging I did find this same deer picture on Pinterest.com which then led to his website where the actual picture of the deer is.  On Pinerest and on his website it shows in very small print on the bottom (hardly readable) his name on it.  I'm always careful to make sure there's no copyright or fees to pay for stuff we post but I obviously missed this.  His name is not on the google image we put up so I thought it was OK.  So now I guess I need to email or call Higbee and see if I can negotiate the fee from $3000 to ??.  We're just a small ministry and don't have that kind of money.  Any suggestions on how I should approach this?  Do you think it matters if I email them at the email they gave me or phone them?  They said I could contact them either way.  I haven't told my wife about this yet as it would totally upset her and ruin her Mother's Day.  Hoping I can handle this without getting her involved and negotiate this down to the bare minimum as we seriously cannot afford this.  Any input would be greatly appreciated.  So sick about this. 
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: kingkendall on May 14, 2017, 12:43:43 AM
@ GWB1

  Contacting Higbee will let them know they got you shook and will only lead to them harassing you more.  Do you really want that?  They're only interested in getting you you to shell out a lot of money.  Do you want to do that?  Just because an image appears on Google images does not mean it's free to use.  Virtually every image found on Google is copyright protected for the person who created whether it is registered or not.  There's an ignorance gap millions of people fall into and copyright trolls are taking advantage of this.   
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi) on May 14, 2017, 09:30:41 AM
as already mentioned 99.9% of images found on google are protected by copyright, the only ones "free" to use would be images in the public domain. Neither copyright registration, or a "watermark" are required to afford this protection. Negotiating with Higbee or the artist would not end well, especially if you stated the image came from google, that pretty much admitting to infringement, and ignorance is not a valid defense. If it were me I would lay low and wait it out. IF and thats a big IF they decide to file suit, you can then maybe "turn the tables" on them.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: GWB1 on May 14, 2017, 09:44:43 AM
OK, so I'm stupid for thinking that I could use pictures on our website from google images because I didn't see a copyright on it.  Got that part.  Now, what do I do?  You guys are suggesting I wait it out and not contact them?  That's the best approach to this?  Should I not email them and let them know I can't afford this and try to negotiate it down?  You guys have a lot of experience so just telling someone like me I'm ignorant isn't really helping me out.  Yeah, I admit it but I need to know how I should approach this?  Just ignore it?  Please, give me some helpful advice as to how to handle this.  Thank you.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: stinger on May 14, 2017, 11:54:23 AM
Read through this forum and you will learn how copyright trolls work.  You will develop a better feeling for what they are doing.

The reason people are telling you not to contact Higbee is because, right now, they are shooting in the dark.  They don't know if they are talking to an honest person with a conscience, a mass murderer, or a turnip that they will never be able to squeeze blood from.

Every time you contact them, they learn more about you. 

I think you screwed up.  Learn from it and don't do it again.  I think what copyright trolls do is far worse than what you did.  They use the law to extort inordinate sums of money from people with means and a conscience.  What they do is not a mistake, it's a (dirty) business strategy.  Many make more money on their trolling business than on their image business.

If you read through this forum you can learn how lots of other people approached trolls and how things ended up.  You can plan a strategy that you can live with.  You will likely have to live with it for the next 3 years.

But put yourself in Higbee's shoes.  Would they sue someone if they didn't know the likelihood of winning?  It costs money to file a suit.  If the image is not properly registered, it is likely the court might come to a verdict of $200 or less.  How much money can Higbee make (lose) by filing $400 lawsuits where they might only win $200 or less?

That's why people are telling you not to contact them.  In the end, you need to live with your choice.  I recommend staying silent and taking all the time you need to get educated before deciding on your strategy.  Any deadlines they give you are arbitrary.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi) on May 14, 2017, 12:06:26 PM
I wasn't calling you "ignorant", what i was saying was, claiming you did not now, is not a valid defense...only you can decide how to proceed, each "case" is different. Do as Stinger suggests, get educated, then make a decision. There is no magic bullet short of paying them.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: GWB1 on May 14, 2017, 01:34:22 PM
I admit I'm ignorant. I messed up. I take full responsibility for it. From what I've read Higbee is pretty aggressive and most people seem to negotiate down with him.  I guess I need to do some more research. Thanks for your input guys. Just kinda shaken up about this. Thank you.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: JuanSilva on May 14, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
Sorry to hear about your situation.   Let me tell you what happened to me.   After ignoring 2 letters and about  5 or 6 emails - I got hit with a law suit - on Wednesday.  Obviously I  gambled and I lost.   They did not just go away.   My cousin's husband is a lawyer and I am hoping he will help me fight it.  But they are now asking for $7,000 settle and cover costs of the law suit.  They took the previous offer off the table which does not seem fair.    Has there been any instance of these lawyers suing when the image does not belong to the client?  The registration certificate was not very descriptive.    Will this lawsuit effect my ability to get a home loan?   I have a lot more questions.   Is this forum confidential?  Will posting details here comeback to bite me?
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: kingkendall on May 14, 2017, 07:45:08 PM
@JuanSilva

You're situation sounds very unusual.  Can you give us more information?  You got a summons and complaint filed with a federal court with a docket number?  Just asking because copyright trolls like to send a template of a complaint that looks like the real thing but without a docket number.   
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: GWB1 on May 14, 2017, 09:32:46 PM
One last question.  Is there anyone here that's dealt with Higbee and had a successful resolution with them?  If so, how did you go about approaching them and how did it turn out?   I've read several comments on various forums that this company is pretty aggressive and doesn't back off until they get something from you.  I've read where they did negotiate from a few thousand dollars down to a few hundred dollars.  We're a VERY small non-profit organization and don't even have the amount they're asking for in our bank account.  Impossible for us to pay what they're asking.  Thanks.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: kingkendall on May 15, 2017, 10:12:34 AM
@GWB1

Asking what is a successful negotiation is a relative question.  If they're asking you for $3,000 and you offer to $1,500 and they go for it, some may consider thatr successful for knocing the demand claim 50%.  But, that's still otragously higher than the market value of that image.  Even if you offer $800 and they go for that it's still a huge mark up.  What I'm saying to you is you're not dealing with a honarable lawyer.  The agist you going through is exactly what Higbee wants you to feel.  ELI is a resource of a lot of other people that have gone through the same thing. 
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: JuanSilva on May 15, 2017, 10:27:02 AM
A server came to my work and gave it to me as I was leaving.  It looks real.  My cousin's husband is supposed to look it up and get me details from a court web site today.   I will post more about it in another thread I dont want to hijack this gentlemans thread.   I also need to know if this site is secure - can anything I post here be used against me?   I also called my insurance company and am waiting for a call back from them.  I am hoping they can help. 
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi) on May 15, 2017, 11:14:49 AM
I see in Pacer that higbee filed a suit on the 11th, I'm assuming this is yours without giving to much detail.. Thus is a public forum, and all of the trolls follow us on a regular basis. If you have an attoreny, i would suggest to him/her to consider filing a counter-suit for a declaratory judgement, these "stock" images are not worth 8k.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: GWB1 on May 15, 2017, 01:43:45 PM
I'm curious to know how Higbee finds these photos?  Does his clients know he is doing this or does he  just do it on his own?   Do you have any idea what percentage he gives the owner of the images if he gets paid?
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: clist on May 15, 2017, 02:33:18 PM
I'm curious to know how Higbee finds these photos?  Does his clients know he is doing this or does he  just do it on his own?   Do you have any idea what percentage he gives the owner of the images if he gets paid?

They have software that combs the web searching for "matches".
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: GWB1 on May 15, 2017, 02:38:49 PM
Thank you, clist.

Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: GWB1 on May 15, 2017, 02:39:46 PM
I was able to verify the Certificate of Registration through the copyright office. I've spent countless hours researching this and it's for sure legit and belongs to the person who Higbee said it belongs to.  Everything I found shows that it's not fake so now I am left to decide on how to go about resolving this.  I have read enough to know that this outfit is not going to let this go.  It seems my only option is to try to negotiate a settlement.  Getting ready to email them soon.  One last time, any input before I email them?  I know no one is giving me legal advise here but whatever you might say that could help me is much appreciated. Thank you.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: clist on May 15, 2017, 03:16:36 PM
I was able to verify the Certificate of Registration through the copyright office. I've spent countless hours researching this and it's for sure legit and belongs to the person who Higbee said it belongs to.  Everything I found shows that it's not fake so now I am left to decide on how to go about resolving this.  I have read enough to know that this outfit is not going to let this go.  It seems my only option is to try to negotiate a settlement.  Getting ready to email them soon.  One last time, any input before I email them?  I know no one is giving me legal advise here but whatever you might say that could help me is much appreciated. Thank you.

[not legal advice - merely suggestions from some random guy on the forum - take it with a grain of salt]

#1 Admit nothing. (You can believe that anything you tell any of these trolls will be used against you. *Even on the forum )

#2. (I'd probably do this before reaching out) Do some homework and see what the "market rate" is for the image and also see if the same image can be found elsewhere on the web. There are software tools available online that you can use to locate the image. *Google it*

#3 Respond don't react ~ Understand that these trolls have crafted these form letters and correspondence in a way to elicit emotion. They try and make you feel as if you have to act [and act fast] because you have willingly committed a crime. If you take some time and read through the forum you'll see that most scenarios are *innocent infringements* at best and it is up to them to prove otherwise.

#4 Read through these forums. The more you know the better. Especially when it comes time for contacting a lawyer or engaging in negotiation.

Good luck.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: kingkendall on May 15, 2017, 03:30:47 PM
@GWB1

Clist has given you very good advice.  I would suggest take a breath amd don't act to hastily.   
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: stinger on May 15, 2017, 03:44:00 PM
I agree with Clist's advice.  My only additional advice is:

If you really need an attorney, get one that specializes in copyright infringement and digital image law.  A lawyer is a lawyer is a lawyer is B.S.  On this forum, I have seen attorneys that do not specialize in C.I. and D.I. law recommend settling simply because the client or client/prospect has admitted doing something wrong.  The non-specialist attorney does not know his/her way around this topic.

If they really are suing you, I am interested in knowing more.  My experience is that they rarely sue over one image unless it is something special like an A list celebrity or some such thing.  If I were in your shoes, I would contact Oscar Michelen and fight it.  He knows the case law that might apply to your defense and whether or not you should settle.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: GWB1 on May 15, 2017, 05:30:22 PM
clist and and stinger, I appreciate your input.  I have put countless hours into researching this and there just doesn't seem to be a good ending to this short of negotiating with them on the price.

I found on google, but since I got this notice to immediately remove the photo I have complied with that request.  It's a picture of a deer which is very common, however, I recently discovered the owner of this picture is a professional photographer who owns the rights to this picture.  No, it's not worth $3000 this outfit is demanding from me but spending money on an attorney to negotiate this could be quite costly too.

If I don't respond in a few days this attorney plans to file suit and then it will end up in court.  I've been obsessed with this and have done countless hours of research.  It's clear that this outfit is known for not letting things go.  You either negotiate with them or go to court.  If there's been anyone who has had success in not paying some kind of a settlement with them, I have not found them here on this forum or anywhere else for that matter.

My dilemma is whether or not I spend money on an attorney who will charge me for negotiating a settlement with this outfit or just go directly to Higbee and try to negotiate it myself.  I have not seen anyone who has ignored him end up in a better place.  He isn't going to drop this from everything I've researched on the internet from other people who are where I am now.

We are a very small non-profit ministry.  I receive no income from it because we don't receive enough income to pay me.  My wife and I both work as volunteers.  Both, the ministry and my wife and I don't have anywhere near the amount of money they are demanding from us.

I have received all the information I can glean from this forum and other places so now I need to decide where to go from here. 

Thank you all for your help and input—I appreciate it very much.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: Jerry Witt (mcfilms) on May 15, 2017, 06:56:34 PM
If this was posted on and by the small non-profit ministry web site, you may want to consider that the organization is "judgement-proof". That is, even if they go through the trouble of filing and appearing in court AND win, what do they hope to gain? If the ministry has no real assets and not much money, even if they win, they lose. Even if the court decides in their favor and awards them money, depending on the structure of the non-profit, they are going to have a very difficult time collecting.

If it were me, I wouldn't hire an attorney (except maybe Oscar). I would prepare a dozen similar images and the current pricing for them. I would tell them that you are a judgement-proof, small non-profit. I would point out that the organization is prepared to go to court if needed, but would prefer to avoid it.

Finally, I would point out that suing a small non-profit ministry may prove to be a public relations nightmare for their client. I would make a fair offer to settle. And I would insist that they share ALL this information with their client. It is important that you tell them that they must share your offer, your intent to appear in court, and that you intend to be very publicly vocal about them suing a ministry, with their client.

But that is just what I would do.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: GWB1 on May 15, 2017, 10:35:25 PM
Jerry Witt, thank you for your comments and input.  What you've shared with me is very helpful and will give me some ideas on how I will put my email together.  You've given me a new perspective about this especially since we most likely are a "judgement proof" organization which I've never thought about before. 

We have no property or offices and mainly do ministry from the internet.  Our income barely pays our utility bills and office supplies.  What you said is really helpful and will help me think about how I will construct my email to this attorney.

You ALL have been very helpful to me and I appreciate each and everyone of you who chimed in with your comments and input.  I have learned a lot here and am definitely going to be much more cautious and diligent about what we put on our website in the future.

Thanks you ALL again for your helpful comments.  Wish me well as I try to get this matter resolved. 

Thanks again!
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi) on May 16, 2017, 01:44:23 AM
If you are going to spend any money on this, consider filing a counter suit if they file..tell higher you will be filing for a declaratory judgement (Google this)..thus will maybe turn the tables on higher and his client.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: kingkendall on May 16, 2017, 10:06:44 AM
@GWB1

I don't think it's a good idea to contact Higbee and plead your case.  Why offer them any information about yourself?  Save all that for a judge if it were able to get that far, and that's a huge if in your case. 
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: GWB1 on May 16, 2017, 01:12:58 PM
Robert, thank you for letting me know about the declaratory judgement.  If it turns out I need an attorney we will definitely file a counter suit.  Do you think his client is aware that he's contacted me about this?

kingkendall, the thing is, everywhere I've read about people who have ignored Higbee they eventually heard back from him and he withdrew his previous offer and demanded more than he originally asked for.  I have not seen one case that was dropped or ignored by this outfit from people who ignored him.  Everything I've read shows that he will not let go until he gets money or takes them to court.  If I ignore him and end up in court I might end up spending more money by hiring an attorney to settle this.  I can't afford it.  I understand either way is risky but since I haven't seen anyone post having success by ignoring this guy I feel I don't have any choice in the matter except to deal with him. 

Interesting, this morning as I was doing more research I found the picture on the guy's market place website (which I never saw before now) and it just happened to be uploaded on the part of his website where he sells pictures for a certain amount of time used.  The attorney said in his letter to me that this was discovered in February of this year.   He waited until now to contact me...3 months later.  I find it interesting that this picture was uploaded on the owners market place website in February of this year as well.  Coincidence?  Probably not.  The owner of the picture charges $250 for using it for two years and Higbee is demanding I pay him $3000!

Anyway, I've gotten a lot of good input here from you all which I greatly appreciate.  I just feel that since we cannot afford an attorney that this is my only option.  I feel confident that we could win this case if it were to go to court, but if I can settle it for an amount close to what it would have cost to pay the owner ($250) for using the picture then I think it might be worth the gamble to go this route.  Only time will tell.

Thank you all for your time and input.  I really do appreciate it.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: clist on May 16, 2017, 01:24:02 PM
...but if I can settle it for an amount close to what it would have cost to pay the owner ($250) for using the picture then I think it might be worth the gamble to go this route..

In an ideal scenario this would make the most sense.

The problem is that a lot of the time this does not happen (read through the forums - numerous parties have tried this approach and have found that they still wanted exorbitant amounts) and by further contacting them you have now given them more of a reason to pursue you..

Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: GWB1 on May 16, 2017, 02:12:01 PM
clist, if I ignore them doesn't that make me look bad in court if we end up there?  Doesn't that show that I willfully ignored this and as a result should have known better than to act like this is no big deal?  I just feel either way I do this I'm gonna get clobbered.   Seems this is a no win situation either way I go.  I either ignore this and possibly end up hiring an attorney, which I cannot afford, or try to negotiate this down the best I can.  I've read through this forum and have spent tons of time researching Higbee, and while they certainly are not known for being ethical in the way they pursue people for copyright infringement, they also don't let go once you become their target.  If Higbee wants to go to court he's going to spend a lot of money to find out that there's no blood to squeeze out of this turnip. 
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: clist on May 16, 2017, 03:50:54 PM
clist, if I ignore them doesn't that make me look bad in court if we end up there?  Doesn't that show that I willfully ignored this and as a result should have known better than to act like this is no big deal?  I just feel either way I do this I'm gonna get clobbered.   Seems this is a no win situation either way I go.  I either ignore this and possibly end up hiring an attorney, which I cannot afford, or try to negotiate this down the best I can.  I've read through this forum and have spent tons of time researching Higbee, and while they certainly are not known for being ethical in the way they pursue people for copyright infringement, they also don't let go once you become their target.  If Higbee wants to go to court he's going to spend a lot of money to find out that there's no blood to squeeze out of this turnip.

I wish I had an answer for you. Unfortunately there is no magic bullet.
(Except for paying the amount requested)

[My opinion here - again, not legal advice]

In regards to ignoring this: While Judges may look down on you for not responding they may also look down on Higbee for the unethical pursuit of an exorbitant amount from a non profit.

Its all on how you (or the judge) looks at it.

While I don't doubt that this Troll will take someone to court I do believe (in most cases) you have to make it desirable for them to do so.

For example, I spoke to a Lawyer a while back regarding the "Copyright troll business model" and he stated that if he was to take someone to court for this it would only be for "slam dunk cases" and "because they had something to go after".

Again, this is just an opinion so I wouldn't necessarily rule out an unethical firm from shooting in the dark but you get the picture.

So (my opinion again) you can bet as soon as you try to reach out to them to plead your case / negotiate (because you are an honest human being with a conscience)  all you will accomplish is putting yourself at a disadvantage because you have now made yourself look like you've got something to protect, thus making yourself look like a desirable candidate.


Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: Jerry Witt (mcfilms) on May 16, 2017, 04:12:31 PM
GWB1, you seem like a really smart fellow. I believe you can make your ministry a really undesirable candidate for a lawsuit WHILE not admitting any guilt. The general rule is usually to ignore these things and hope they go away. However, I think the course you are considering based on what you've learned about Higbee's track record is smart. You don't need to over-engage. When you ask them to forward your offer to the client and they come back to you (and they surely will), be ready to press them on HOW the client responded. Also if you asked for proof of copyright registration, insist on that before any further conversations. And continue to drive home how silly the idea of suing a ministry with few assets is (and how bad it may look for all concerned).

Also, if they DO decide to file against you, be prepared to "out yourself." By that I mean, publicly reveal your organization, what good works you do, and what impact their claim would have on your ministry. Get vocal and active on social media, talk to people every chance you get.

Matt often talks about being willing to get your hands dirty when dealing with these... uhhh individuals. I think this would be a perfect situation to do it.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: Matthew Chan on May 16, 2017, 04:34:26 PM
Jerry,

I don't recommend getting in the dirt all the time. It depends.

For some people, just plain ignoring and avoidance is the better course of action.

Some people's dispositions and mindset are just not well-equipped to engage. As you know, there is no one answer fits all.

Matt often talks about being willing to get your hands dirty when dealing with these... uhhh individuals. I think this would be a perfect situation to do it.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: Matthew Chan on May 16, 2017, 04:44:31 PM
You are way too trusting and believing of the lawsuit threat. What you are stating is factually untrue in many cases.

People who are under the 3-year statute of limitations are not going to speak out.  And those that do make it to the 3-year mark will generally just go on with their lives. Some do report back.

And regarding Higbee & Associates, they only came on the ELI scene around two years ago.  Hence, nearly everyone who has gotten a Higbee letter and participates on ELI will not be reporting on anything until probably 2018 at earliest.

You are speculating a lot and making false assumptions.

You go do what you feel you need to do but I can tell you the compliant, obedient types are generally the big losers.

As other experienced people can tell you, there are no guarantees. If you are looking for one, then you cough up the money.

In my view, you are a candidate for Oscar Michelen's Defense Letter Program:
http://www.extortionletterinfo.com/2012-update-expansion-of-attorney-oscar-michelens-defense-letter-program/


If I don't respond in a few days this attorney plans to file suit and then it will end up in court.  I've been obsessed with this and have done countless hours of research.  It's clear that this outfit is known for not letting things go.  You either negotiate with them or go to court.  If there's been anyone who has had success in not paying some kind of a settlement with them, I have not found them here on this forum or anywhere else for that matter.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: Matthew Chan on May 16, 2017, 04:53:28 PM
Where is this "everywhere" you are reading? And who is writing this "information" you are getting?

I would submit to you that what you think you see is not representative of what is true. I think I have a much better view of the situation because I have spoken with/consulted with many Higbee victims. Not one of them has written back to me they got a lawsuit yet.

And I don't get the feeling all the people I've talked to coughed up the money to settle either. The fact I have not heard from them doesn't mean they haven't settled. But it doesn't mean they have also.

You have flawed conclusions. Do what you want and what you think is best for yourself but you making these broad statements about the Higbee situation is misleading and inaccurate as far as I am concerned.

Most of us who have been around know the psych games these people play and the lies they tell. We also know that that vast majority of cases don't face lawsuits. I monitor the lawsuit situation and it is still a relatively rare occurrence compared to the thousands of letters being issued every year by the copyright extortion industry.

Everyone always has a choice. YOU may feel you don't have a choice but that is factually untrue.

kingkendall, the thing is, everywhere I've read about people who have ignored Higbee they eventually heard back from him and he withdrew his previous offer and demanded more than he originally asked for.  I have not seen one case that was dropped or ignored by this outfit from people who ignored him.  Everything I've read shows that he will not let go until he gets money or takes them to court. 

If I ignore him and end up in court I might end up spending more money by hiring an attorney to settle this.  I can't afford it.  I understand either way is risky but since I haven't seen anyone post having success by ignoring this guy I feel I don't have any choice in the matter except to deal with him. 
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: Matthew Chan on May 16, 2017, 04:59:24 PM
Higbee doesn't decide if a case goes to court.  The client does.  And generally speaking, they have to be willing to commit the upfront monies to file suit because most lawyers are not going to subsidize the fees unless they have a "sure thing" or a "big fish".

Your own false assumptions is going to your detriment and cost you. If you want to negotiate a settlement, fine.  But you are setting yourself up to pay more than necessary.

People think that being the "broke little guy" is a bad thing. In these types of cases, it is actually BETTER to be a "broke little guy". It is a deterrent to paying filing fees to try to sue and collect money from someone unable to pay.

It also drives down the settlement amounts, not increase them.

If Higbee wants to go to court he's going to spend a lot of money to find out that there's no blood to squeeze out of this turnip.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: GWB1 on May 16, 2017, 09:34:08 PM
Matt, thanks for your comments.  I appreciate you chiming in and sharing your valuable insight with me.

Here's the thing, some people suggest I just ignore them.  Do you seriously think they're going to ignore me for ignoring them?  Today I went to two attorney websites that specialize in the same stuff you do.  Both of them give some basic do's and don'ts (on their websites) on how to handle situations like this.  They both say...do not ignore a letter from an attorney for copyright infringement.  Naturally, they both suggest getting a lawyer to represent them. They both agree that if you do it on your own then let the attorney know the picture has been removed from the website and offer to pay whatever the going rate is for using the photo.  They warn not to give anymore information than that.  I think that's wise advice and I'm not sure why some people think ignoring this is a good option to take. 

Regardless, I think I need to step back now and process all this information I have and take a couple of days to decide how to deal with this.  I read through the letter again and they give 30 days to respond.  I have plenty of time to figure this out and hopefully I make the right decision.

Thank you all again for your time and valuable input.  I'm glad I found this forum and appreciate the service you offer for people like me. 
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: stinger on May 17, 2017, 09:07:12 AM
  Today I went to two attorney websites that specialize in the same stuff you do.  Both of them give some basic do's and don'ts (on their websites) on how to handle situations like this.  They both say...do not ignore a letter from an attorney for copyright infringement.  Naturally, they both suggest getting a lawyer to represent them. They both agree that if you do it on your own then let the attorney know the picture has been removed from the website and offer to pay whatever the going rate is for using the photo.  They warn not to give anymore information than that.  I think that's wise advice and I'm not sure why some people think ignoring this is a good option to take. 

Lawyers work in the court system and use that system to mitigate disputes.  That is not the only way to come out ahead here.  Matt has a reputation on this web site for thinking outside the box and working outside the court system.  He finds ways to discourage trolls from coming after him.  Some of Matt's methods might make lawyers cringe, but they work and are often more cost effective than going to a lawyer.

Jerry Witt has suggested some things that might discourage lawyers from coming after you.  A whole lot of bad PR can hurt a troll operation far more than a small win in court.

In the end, you have to decide what works for you.  But remember, there are no court mandated 30 day deadlines.  All deadlines imposed by trolls are completely arbitrary and dreamed up to further pressure you.  The only deadline I'm aware of in these matters is that the trolls have 3 years from the day they discover an infringement situation, to file with the courts (Statute of Limitations).

Don't be bullied.  Take your time and make the best decision for yourself.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: JuanSilva on May 17, 2017, 12:41:06 PM
I will quickly say that I ignored them and then got sued (I am not saying if it was Higbee & Associates or not - I do not want revealing details about my case posted online). I am a small operation with little income and less assets.   Thankfully, I have insurance and the insurance company looks like they are going to get involved.   A claims representative contacted me and said that most likely an attorney will contact me today or tomorrow.  My deductible is $2,500 - ouch because that is more than they originally asked for. 

I am thinking that I probably would have been better off calling them to explain my situaton and offer them something less.  I hear that the prices they are asking are negotiable.

I am in the process of applying for a loan and I had to disclose this law suit.  I have no idea what that is going to do to my loan.

I will post more later if I can.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi) on May 17, 2017, 07:26:05 PM
Here's the thing, some people suggest I just ignore them.  Do you seriously think they're going to ignore me for ignoring them?  Today I went to two attorney websites that specialize in the same stuff you do.  Both of them give some basic do's and don'ts (on their websites) on how to handle situations like this.  They both say...do not ignore a letter from an attorney for copyright infringement.  Naturally, they both suggest getting a lawyer to represent them. to decide how to deal with this.  I read through the letter again and they give 30 days to respond.  I have plenty of time to figure this out and hopefully I make the right decision.


NO ONE ever said if you ignore they will ignore you, not sure where you got that.. By ignoring we mean, remove the image and question and get on with life, don't respond, don't email.. You pretty stated you have no funds to pay this..even more reason ( if it were me to ignore it)..let them sue you, you have no assets, even if they win, they lose, as they can't collect, and you get to publicly shames them for suiing a non-profit small minisrty that tries to do good..you have to deal with this on YOUR terms, not theirs, sometimes that requires hinking outside the box.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: Matthew Chan on May 17, 2017, 07:32:29 PM
I don't have a vested interest one way or another what people do.  What I do care about is telling the truth and dispelling so-called common knowledge. You make broad statements that is untrue in our corner of the world.

People always say "get a lawyer" and listen to them UNLESS someone listens to or hires Oscar Michelen. He isn't here on the ELI Forums very much anymore but I am still in regular contact with him over different matters. We have a few disagreements on smaller points but I don't think I am out of line when I say he agrees with some of the "street" knowledge/tactics ELI shares and discusses here. It may be edgy but not criminal or illegal. Oscar doesn't try to reel everyone into hire him. He actually dissuades some people because he knows the scam well and thinks of the victims instead of his wallet.

Some lawyers hate some of the ideas and knowledge we share because it makes their job much harder and it plays outside the system.  Lawyers prefer people pay and use the system.  The system has its place. It has its good points and bad points.

I have lawyer friends and associates. I respect them highly but I have been in business and lived "on the streets" long enough to see the pros and cons, strengths and weaknesses of lawyers. I have also seen enough to know that many problems get resolved not by trying to "outlawyering" your opponent.

Sometimes it is "out-spining" them (as in "get a spine").  Lawyers work for clients. Clients don't work for lawyers. People forget that.

This is the deal, hiring a lawyer is a luxury. It requires money. It also sometimes requires you to subvert your independence and options. Small-timers who can't afford lawyers have to pursue non-lawyer options and we openly discuss them here on ELI.

You keep saying you have little money but apparently that must not be true because you seem so eager to pay into a system in which many have not had to.  If the stress and fear is too much to bear, I understand. Do what you need to do. But that is YOUR issue and choice.  But for others, standing your ground and not getting rolled over and falling into extortionate demands is their choice.  And yes, they do bear the small risk for standing their ground.

I am not telling you to not settle or not engage. I am not telling you to ignore either.  I am also not telling you to not hire a lawyer. After all, we have Oscar Michelen and his defense letter program.

What I object to are your sweeping statements and assumptions which are greatly flawed. I don't mean to sound harsh but I feel strongly in my position.

As Stinger has said, I don't follow conventional wisdom. I do try to think creatively and unorthodox ways. We even talk about edgy ideas but I keep it in the "legal" column as in NOT CRIMINAL ACTIONS.

Ignoring a demand or ignoring a lawsuit would make most lawyers scream and run for the hills BUT IT AIN'T CRIMINAL.  And sometimes, it actually works and solves the problem much more quickly and efficiently than any lawyer could make it!

Just like NOT paying a debt. In the U.S., there are no debtor prisons or half the the U.S. population and all college graduates would be in jail. It doesn't mean I endorse not paying debts either. 

All I am saying is that the ELI Forums is a place for finer discussions and thinking when it comes to legalistic issues as copyright infringement enforcement issues.

I encourage people to think "rebelliously" and with a protest mindset. And for me personally and many people, it works quite well.

And stop blindly believing everything an extortion letter says.  Just because it says 30-days, does not make it true.  You have fallen into the trap. You seem to believe everything the letter says.

Here's the thing, some people suggest I just ignore them.  Do you seriously think they're going to ignore me for ignoring them?  Today I went to two attorney websites that specialize in the same stuff you do.  Both of them give some basic do's and don'ts (on their websites) on how to handle situations like this.  They both say...do not ignore a letter from an attorney for copyright infringement.  Naturally, they both suggest getting a lawyer to represent them. They both agree that if you do it on your own then let the attorney know the picture has been removed from the website and offer to pay whatever the going rate is for using the photo.  They warn not to give anymore information than that.  I think that's wise advice and I'm not sure why some people think ignoring this is a good option to take. 

Regardless, I think I need to step back now and process all this information I have and take a couple of days to decide how to deal with this.  I read through the letter again and they give 30 days to respond.  I have plenty of time to figure this out and hopefully I make the right decision.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: Matthew Chan on May 17, 2017, 07:37:40 PM
I would like to add to what Robert said, there is middle ground also.  You can lightly engage to feel out if they are willing to be reasonable. If they refuse to be reasonable, then go dark.   You can play ping-pong with them to gauge things out.  Or simply hire Oscar. Or simply go dark for awhile, THEN hire Oscar.

You see how that works? There are many permutations but people new to ELI are linear or black/white thinkers.  We are not afraid to get into the grey but people have to be receptive to talking in the grey areas.

There are actually many ways to play it but it does require someone to be open-minded, flexible, and adaptable.

Here's the thing, some people suggest I just ignore them.  Do you seriously think they're going to ignore me for ignoring them?  Today I went to two attorney websites that specialize in the same stuff you do.  Both of them give some basic do's and don'ts (on their websites) on how to handle situations like this.  They both say...do not ignore a letter from an attorney for copyright infringement.  Naturally, they both suggest getting a lawyer to represent them. to decide how to deal with this.  I read through the letter again and they give 30 days to respond.  I have plenty of time to figure this out and hopefully I make the right decision.


NO ONE ever said if you ignore they will ignore you, not sure where you got that.. By ignoring we mean, remove the image and question and get on with life, don't respond, don't email.. You pretty stated you have no funds to pay this..even more reason ( if it were me to ignore it)..let them sue you, you have no assets, even if they win, they lose, as they can't collect, and you get to publicly shames them for suiing a non-profit small minisrty that tries to do good..you have to deal with this on YOUR terms, not theirs, sometimes that requires hinking outside the box.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: Matthew Chan on May 17, 2017, 07:48:30 PM
You imply that your claim is much more than the $2,500 deductible.  Did you even try to negotiate it down?  People who turn to their insurance policies over most of these claims strikes me as a bad idea. It is a guarantee for a premium hike.

And only the uninformed every believe the printed settlement amounts is what it takes to get rid of it.  It is not uncommon to see 50% discounts or more for multi-thousand dollar claims but it requires fighting for it. It isn't handed on a silver platter.

Did you not consider getting on the Defense Letter Program for $250?

I think you may want to reconsider the claim until you get better informed.

Something feels very wrong about what little you shared. I think you need to do more reading.

I will quickly say that I ignored them and then got sued (I am not saying if it was Higbee & Associates or not - I do not want revealing details about my case posted online). I am a small operation with little income and less assets.   Thankfully, I have insurance and the insurance company looks like they are going to get involved.   A claims representative contacted me and said that most likely an attorney will contact me today or tomorrow.  My deductible is $2,500 - ouch because that is more than they originally asked for. 

I am thinking that I probably would have been better off calling them to explain my situaton and offer them something less.  I hear that the prices they are asking are negotiable.

I am in the process of applying for a loan and I had to disclose this law suit.  I have no idea what that is going to do to my loan.

I will post more later if I can.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: Matthew Chan on May 17, 2017, 07:53:12 PM
Thank you, Stinger, for saying that and "getting" me. And most importantly, thank you for being part of the ELI community.

And yes, many copyright extortion lawyers hate ELI and the information and ideas we share. They wish ELI would go away. They wish Oscar would stop being involved here. They hate the unity and community culture we espouse.  Oscar has the freedom to do whatever he wants but he seems to want to stick with ELI even after nearly 9 years.

Lawyers work in the court system and use that system to mitigate disputes.  That is not the only way to come out ahead here.  Matt has a reputation on this web site for thinking outside the box and working outside the court system.  He finds ways to discourage trolls from coming after him.  Some of Matt's methods might make lawyers cringe, but they work and are often more cost effective than going to a lawyer.
Title: Re: How can I verify a copyright Certificate of Registration number online?
Post by: jren on February 27, 2018, 01:34:39 PM
Juan,

What ever happened with your filing an insurance claim, what was the result? Considering doing similar.

J