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Messages - geezer123

Pages: 1 [2]
16
UK Getty Images Letter Forum / Re: Getty/Atradius/Solicitors
« on: April 20, 2016, 12:07:19 PM »
Have they escalated it or just got their on call solicitors to write you another extortion letter?

Calm down and have another read of the UK citizens advice page.  End of the day it is always going to be your call, no one said LCS would give up easy.
Experience of these forums tells us that they do everything in the book to threaten you short of actually raising a summons, but of course that is not to say they could change that approach at any time.

Look on it in this context.
UK courts expect all parties to be reasonable in all the circumstances. They will take a dim view of a firm claiming silly money which bears no relation to the actual sums lost.

To fast track stuff like this and not clam up the High Court a Small Claims route was established. Citizens Advice goes into some detail on this.

If in the unlikely event a summons is issued you could for example offer them the cost of a 5 year licence for the photo (probably over and above what you used it for) and a token £100 for their expenses.

If they refuse that offer and proceed to court the Judge I strongly suspect take a very dim view of their claim and see you as having been reasonable and tried to settle the matter. (see the Section on part 36 offer).

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/copyright/the-internet-filesharing-and-copyright/if-a-copyright-owner-or-their-agent-is-threatening-or-pressuring-you-to-pay-compensation/

Quote
If your case goes to court

If you're taken to court for copyright infringement, tell the court of any misleading, aggressive or harassing actions against you.

The court will take the conduct of the copyright owner, exclusive licensee, or solicitor, into account. For example, the court can refuse to impose additional damages on you because of  the copyright owners’ behaviour, or refuse to impose any costs on you. Courts can also impose restraining orders.

If you're feeling threatened but the dispute is really about the settlement sum, and the copyright owner is just repeating demands for money, consider making a Part 36 offer.

A Part 36 offer calls the copyright owner’s bluff, leaving them no option but to justify the damages they are claiming in court, while protecting you against costs if you're found guilty of copyright infringement by a court.



17
It's all worded in such a way to put you under extreme pressure and force you to pay sorry settle......

End of the day it is up to you how you want to proceed but if I thought they were serious about proceeding a matter to court over a single image infringment and had the authority to do so holding exclusive rights I would consider cutting their legs off at the knees and make them a Part 36 offer.

UK Citizens Advice is a wealth of information on this subject... Have a good read through.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/copyright/the-internet-filesharing-and-copyright/

Edit to add...

Not sure if yours is a PA image (mine certainly is) so on that basis I researched it. I checked your other thread but I thought I read it somewhere.

My image was NOT for sale on the Getty portal but WAS for sale on the PA portal. This IMHO calls into much doubt LCS/Getty's claim that they have exclusive copyright.

In addition the Press Association terms and conditions regarding purchasing a licence...   https://www.paimages.co.uk/assets/docs/terms/ecommerce_terms_editorial.pdf

Quote
1. Ownership of the PA Material
1.1 The Website is owned and operated by PA.
1.2 The PA Material is owned by PA or its licensors.
1.3 The PA Material and all related rights shall remain the exclusive property of PA and its licensors.

Seems to me that as far as Getty/LCS claiming rights on PA images that section 1.3 nails it.

Incidentally I priced my image up on the PA website for a 5 year+ licence and it came to £90.00. I believe in fair use of intellectual rights so I might just purchase it and tell Gatty/LCS to go and get stuffed.

It is for them to prove you do not have a licence, not for you to prove that you do....




18
My letter from Jersey arrived this morning. Assume it was from these jokers as it was just addressed to the business and had a return postcode of JE1 1JP on the back....

Wonder if I should shred it or send it back unopened....  :-) I shan't be opening it either way...

I could drop in the Government propaganda leaflet delivered last week printed at taxpayers expense about voting to stay a member of the EU....  ;-)

Edit to add. The postcode revolves to this large residential house on Jersey. 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@49.2135912,-2.1894288,3a,75y,275.09h,76.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scmJYTHWurXCrneNGParz7A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Seems whomever is scamming these letters is making a good living at it... For our US Cousins Jersey is a UK Crown dependency off the coast of Northern France, much nearer France than the UK. Holds certain tax advantages in locating a business on the Island.

19
That's interesting.

On what basis does the solicitor come to the conclusion you owe them? You have not instructed them. Seems to me they want part of the  extortion action.

Can you quote verbatim exactly how they have requested this fee (redacting personal stuff of course). Perhaps there is scope for a complaint to the Law society... Was it addressed to you personally?

Edit to add. This may be of some use and clarify the position. Although of course in no way should these sums being extorted be regarded as debts.

https://www.nationaldebtline.org/EW/factsheets/Pages/03%20EW%20Harassment%20by%20creditors%20and%20debt%20collectors/Default.aspx

Quote
Communication
Information:
what the FCA says
"A firm must...communicate information...in a way which is clear, fair and not misleading."

Principle 7, Principles for Businesses
This includes:

sending letters that look like court claims;
not making it clear who the company is or what their role is;
using unhelpful legal language;
not giving balance statements about the debt when asked;
not letting you know the outcome if you have disputed or queried the debt;
contacting you at unreasonable times even when asked not to; and
asking you to contact them on premium rate phone numbers.

20
Have you responded to them in anyway? Do they have your real name and some sort of idea if you are ready to settle....

As to the 3 cases they have quoted...... Firstly they have not brought any of the cases. I would have thought to have full frighteners effect, from their point of view it would be most beneficial if they were mentioned as the 'claimant'.

Alec Saville v Redrup Publications
http://www.thisisthewestcountry.co.uk/news/10926534.Copyright_breach_puts_Redrup_Publications_out_of_business/

Quote
A COMPANY boss went out of business after landing a huge bill for breaching copyrights belonging to a firm he once owned.

Jon Redrup put Redrup Publications into voluntary liquidation after a judge ordered his company to pay over £55,000 with the threat of an even bigger payout looming.

The judge ruled in the High Court that Mr Redrup reproduced large chunks of training manuals for care home staff from publications produced by Norton Fitzwarren-based Redcrier Publications, which he owned before selling it to Alec Seville.

Mr Recorder Alastair Wilson QC ordered Redrup Publications to make interim payments totalling £37,450 to Mr Seville and Redcrier for breaching the copyright with £18,029.25 towards their costs.

My bold. Yours is a single image infringement, this chap clearly took large amounts of material in breach and tried to fight the case.

Not really applicable to your case except in that case law applies and we already knew that.


John Walmsley v education Ltd
Full Judgement here.

http://www.turin-ip.com/course-documents/documents-2007/2013-edition/copyright/walmsley-v-education-ltd-in-wl-2014-2194626

Original claim was for £2468 plus costs for two images dated from 1968. Defendant admitted using them out of copyright. Appears 2 photo's were photocopied from a ladybird book, digitized and then placed on the internet, defendant downloaded them from a google images search but they were clearly a photograph of a print publication.

Claimant tried to claim breach of moral rights (which it appeared made up the bulk of the claim) which the judge dismisses at section 17, calling the actions of the defendant naive in believing anything found on google images was fair game.

Quote
17 Having said that, I do not think this is a flagrant breach for which it is appropriate for me to
order further damages for the following reasons. First, I do not think the Defendant's actions
show the element of intent or wilful negligence that is envisaged by the word “flagrant”. As I have
said, I think its actions and those of the employee were naive and possibly one might be unkind
enough to say pretty stupid, but I accept Ms Roberts' submissions that there was nothing more
than that and there is no other evidence to point to flagrancy. Secondly, the purpose of an award
of damages for copyright infringement is to compensate the copyright holder and put him in the
position that he would have been in but for the breach of his rights. The Claimant here is in the
business of creating photographs and selling licence fees in them and the Defendant's actions
have not, as far as I can judge, caused them to benefit from any financial windfall nor for the
Claimant's business to suffer more than in the normal course – the Defendant is not a competing
business for example. In saying that I bear in mind that the Defendant's publication of the images
was on a blog aimed at their students and not on their main commercial website. For those
reasons, I am not going to award further damages by way of an additional uplift on the licence
fee or otherwise and I consider the damages that I have already arrived at sufficient to
compensate the Claimant for the infringement suffered.

Judge did find for the claimant and awarded £1000 + vat + costs (as he did not specifically mention or award costs liability) it is reasonable to assume that each side bore their own costs.

Accidental use of a print publication image which the judge found as a strong mitigating factor.

Henderson v all around the world recordings
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/IPEC/2014/3087.html

This case applies to song lyrics and loss of royalties so what it has to do with your case is anyone's guess.

Another case I came across whilst researching the cases quoted in your letter.

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/IPEC/2015/2608.html

Is between a loft insulation firm and a home improvements undertaking. Concerns 21 photographs. The judge found that use of the 21 photo's was flagrant (a deliberate attempt to circumvent copyright) and awarded £6,000.00 (quite hefty damages) But:

1. No attempt to remove them was made prior to the claimants 'letter before action'.
2. Case revolved around deliberate use and it was clear that the defendant's company had won work and expanded his business off the back of the use of the photographs.

Judge awarded damages on the basis of these two points which almost certainly do not apply to your case.

To summarize.

1. None of these cases were brought by Getty or LCS.
2. They all appear to have been brought by the original holders of the copyright under dispute.

In the UK only copyright holders or those 'holding an exclusive copyright licence, called the exclusive licensee'. Does Getty or LCS or whatever else they are calling themselves this week hold this exclusive licence in the image (yours) in question. If they do not they cannot bring action against you.

See this valuable resource published by UK citizens Advice.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/copyright/the-internet-filesharing-and-copyright/if-you-re-accused-of-online-copyright-infringement/

Doesn't stop them sending 'phishing' letters' though. If only one in twenty pay up it's still a result for them.

End of the day it is your call. As has been said by @Stinger in the post before this one the more information at your fingertips the more informed you will be.

I am at the very early process of this I only got an email last week alleging infringement of one PA image which I immediately took down. I made no contact with them nor do I intend to do so. I expect I will also get a letter some time next week but am right at the start of the process.

Some years ago I was caught 3 miles over the speed limit by a LTI20/20 argued the toss on a point of law (which at that time was still to be settled at the EctHR). Was convicted of speeding at the magistrates court and fined £120 with 3 points. Appealed the case (on the point of law) up to the High Court in London.
It was at that time I got used to reading court judgements and appreciating what was reasonable behaviour on all sides. I (and a lot of others) eventually lost the case as per the EctHR ruling and thought I was going to get clobbered by costs. It turned out that as I had researched my case and had laid a coherent written argument the learned judges waived any costs liable on my part. All in all the case cost me £120 and 3 penalty points but the experience I gained of the UK legal system was invaluable, plus the fact I learned to drive a tad slower.


Bottom line is yes someone has a case and can probably sue you for damages.

That may not be Getty/LCS though.

Your infringement may be so small time so as not to waste the Courts time. There exists such a thing in UK law of malicious intent in court proceedings. If for example someone was to chase you for a single image with a licensing value of say £99.00 for many thousands of pounds damages, I suspect a judge would take a pretty dim view of it and call it malicious. Particularly if at the end of the day you are able to convince the judge the breach was naive and purely accidental.

As I say mate at the end of the day it is your call. We are all here to support each other.....










21
Thanks for the prompt reply......

I shall be binning the letter then when mine arrives I expect next week sometime.....

Just found this on the PA T&C Page https://www.pressassociation.com/Images/Restrictions/TermsConditions/

They sell their own images...... I found the one I am alleged to have transgressed with on their site and it seems they have their own procedure regarding violations at section 5/5.1

My Opinion this calls into doubt the fact that Getty/LCS have exclusive rights on PA Images..

More I look at this the more it looks like a fishing expedition.....

Edit to add..
Now I have had time to search the Getty site where the image is not for sale at all (only on the PA site) it occurs to me this is some elaborate fraud by getty to extort so called damages to which they are not entitled..

Smacks of the traveller people ripping old age pensioners off with needless work on their roofs and garages.


22
Interesting...

If I may ask.
A. was the letter addressed to an individual or an entity?
b. was it sent registered.

I am interested in where they get their data from. Just checked my whois and it only has my Partnership trading name on it not my individual personal name.

Also reasonable to suggest that if a letter does not come addressed to an individual or is not sent registered then it is safe to ignore/bin it.....

23
Interesting about the hotlinking info.....

Have getty/lcs/attrocious ever enclosed more than just a screenshot with their threatening letters?

Do they for example save a copy of the webpage code to disprove hotlinking or otherwise?

24
UK Getty Images Letter Forum / Re: Atradius/Getty
« on: April 13, 2016, 11:06:24 AM »
Clearly a case of this high powered claims collector familiarising himself with his facebook privacy settings.

This really is novice stuff. If they fall at that hurdle what sort of debt collectors are they?

25
I have this morning received an email from LCS purporting that I was using one image (press association) out of copyright. Requesting I pay £400 with a 20% discount which is in place for 10 days.

Is this par for the course? I thought these things were to be sent by letter. Anyway I have not responded and have no intention of doing so until I have read through this extremely valuable resource.

I have of course removed the image from my server. Prepared to accept it may have been used out of licence  but it was placed about 2 years ago by a web designer I engaged online through odesk and some chap in the far east did some web design for a price. Reading the UK citizens advice site it seems to suggest that only the person who placed it is liable?

Also done a tin eye reverse search on the image. And it is on the web with a copyright notice on it name of photographer/Press Association which was not on my version, clearly it was cropped out.
Does this make a difference at all?

Are we to views these as speculative invoices in much the same way as they try and charge you extra for overstaying parking  in McDonalds or Aldi car park?

Unless they actually have the name of the person who they should be directing the bill at there is little they can do?

I guess I should expect a letter in the next few weeks?


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