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Author Topic: Got the letter ....A question and my plan....  (Read 20854 times)

Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi)

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Re: Got the letter ....A question and my plan....
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2012, 07:26:39 PM »

NOTE:

"PERSONAL AND NON-COMMERCIAL USE LIMITATION.
Unless otherwise specified, the Services are for your personal and non-commercial use. You may not modify, copy, distribute, transmit, display, perform, reproduce, publish, license, create derivative works from, transfer, or sell any information, software, products or services obtained from the Services.

Am I the only one who is urked by this? You may use them all you want for "personal" use but don't you dare try to decorate your website where you sell stuff to try and put food on the table for your family! Err!

The images contained in Microsnots products are owned by Corbis, which is owned by Microsnot, so it's not very surprising..
Most questions have already been addressed in the forums, get yourself educated before making decisions.

Any advice is strictly that, and anything I may state is based on my opinions, and observations.
Robert Krausankas

I have a few friends around here..

mreams

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Re: Got the letter ....A question and my plan....
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2012, 03:08:50 PM »
I'm doing some homework on any patterns as to when Getty and others send out letters, I've been noticing a trend, where the forums seem to get quiet, and then all of a sudden get busy again.. I can't help but think that Getty tends to send out letters on a monthly basis all in one shot. If anywould would like to volunteer when their letters were dated it would help in my research, I f a pattern emerges I'll have a look at how hawaiian art network operates as well..it might just be me, but in talking with Matt recently, we discussed the fact that it's usually quiet right before the storm.. This would lend credibility to the fact that you can't use the date of the letter as date of the infringement discovery.....Poor mail mail must hate to pick up Getty's mail on the dates in questions...if it pans out

Like Pea my letter was also dated March 15th 2012.


mreams

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Re: Got the letter ....A question and my plan....
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2012, 03:18:22 PM »
Like most people I am a pretty busy person.  When I actually had the time (April 5th, 1 week past the Getty deadline for a response) to check the rest of website. I took all my images and uploaded them up to a reverse image lookup site: http://www.tineye.com/ (This is a great site to check your images)  I found I had a total of 4 images that were in the Getty database,  Yikes!  Of course I took them all down and replaced them.

I actually never got around to reply to Getty.  There is a phone number on my website, but it is just a voice mail, no messages yet.  I have not received another letter yet either.  I think at this point I will do nothing unless I get another letter. 

Matt

pea

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Re: Got the letter ....A question and my plan....
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2012, 05:31:44 PM »
Thanks for the response, I'm going to guess that means don't use Microsoft Images.  So frustrating, why in the world do they make them so easy to download if they don't want you to use them???

Time to invest in a good camera...

Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi)

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Re: Got the letter ....A question and my plan....
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2012, 05:59:22 PM »
Like most people I am a pretty busy person.  When I actually had the time (April 5th, 1 week past the Getty deadline for a response) to check the rest of website. I took all my images and uploaded them up to a reverse image lookup site: http://www.tineye.com/ (This is a great site to check your images)  I found I had a total of 4 images that were in the Getty database,  Yikes!  Of course I took them all down and replaced them.

I actually never got around to reply to Getty.  There is a phone number on my website, but it is just a voice mail, no messages yet.  I have not received another letter yet either.  I think at this point I will do nothing unless I get another letter. 

Matt

Do NOT depend solely on TinEye, it's not a slam dunk that it will find all images, and also don't forget Getty is not the only trolling company either.. Bottom line is if you have ANY images on your site of which you do not have a receipt for, or you did not create the image yourself, someone somewhere owns that / those images and you are still exposed to getting other or more letters.
Most questions have already been addressed in the forums, get yourself educated before making decisions.

Any advice is strictly that, and anything I may state is based on my opinions, and observations.
Robert Krausankas

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mreams

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Re: Got the letter ....A question and my plan....
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2012, 06:16:17 PM »
Do NOT depend solely on TinEye, it's not a slam dunk that it will find all images, and also don't forget Getty is not the only trolling company either.. Bottom line is if you have ANY images on your site of which you do not have a receipt for, or you did not create the image yourself, someone somewhere owns that / those images and you are still exposed to getting other or more letters.

You are correct.  I actuall used another site as well to check.  I had 1 image from some other Getty like site, I removed that one as well.  After looking at the images that are listed in these companies you get a good feel if you think it is an image that would be on Getty or a Getty like sight.  But I always check now. 

Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi)

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Re: Got the letter ....A question and my plan....
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2012, 06:25:28 PM »

You are correct.  I actuall used another site as well to check.  I had 1 image from some other Getty like site, I removed that one as well.  After looking at the images that are listed in these companies you get a good feel if you think it is an image that would be on Getty or a Getty like sight.  But I always check now.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to be an ass hat, but I think you missed my main point.. just because one of these sites did not find an image, doesn't get you in the clear, the ONLY way to be 100% certain is to have paperwork or create the images yourself. I suggest you might read the hawaiian art network posts, in regards to "free" wallpaper images.. there are also single photographers that track back their images and send out nasty grams.. I guess it comes down to if you want to gamble or not. I have since stopped using images unless I create them.
Most questions have already been addressed in the forums, get yourself educated before making decisions.

Any advice is strictly that, and anything I may state is based on my opinions, and observations.
Robert Krausankas

I have a few friends around here..

Greg Troy (KeepFighting)

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Re: Got the letter ....A question and my plan....
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2012, 10:32:58 AM »
My Letter was dated March 29th.  I will be interested to see the results of this.

I also think it is a mistake to assume anything. GI may send you a "blurry PicScout screenshot" as proof of their claim. But to assume that they don't have multiple crystal clear shots is a huge mistake. I know if I were pursuing this I would gather as much supporting proof as possible.

I also think it's foolish to assume that the date of their letter is the date of their discovery. I'm certain there is a period of days, if not weeks or months that pass before they send out a notice. To outright lie about this information is just going to make you look like a jerk. You know when you put it up. Of course I'm not saying you should volunteer the exact date you uploaded the image in early conversations.

I'm doing some homework on any patterns as to when Getty and others send out letters, I've been noticing a trend, where the forums seem to get quiet, and then all of a sudden get busy again.. I can't help but think that Getty tends to send out letters on a monthly basis all in one shot. If anywould would like to volunteer when their letters were dated it would help in my research, I f a pattern emerges I'll have a look at how hawaiian art network operates as well..it might just be me, but in talking with Matt recently, we discussed the fact that it's usually quiet right before the storm.. This would lend credibility to the fact that you can't use the date of the letter as date of the infringement discovery.....Poor mail mail must hate to pick up Getty's mail on the dates in questions...if it pans out
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 10:34:51 AM by KeepFighting »
Every situation is unique, any advice or opinions I offer are given for your consideration only. You must decide what is best for you and your particular situation. I am not a lawyer and do not offer legal advice.

--Greg Troy

Lettered

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Re: Got the letter ....A question and my plan....
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2012, 11:52:31 AM »

You are correct.  I actuall used another site as well to check.  I had 1 image from some other Getty like site, I removed that one as well.  After looking at the images that are listed in these companies you get a good feel if you think it is an image that would be on Getty or a Getty like sight.  But I always check now.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to be an ass hat, but I think you missed my main point.. just because one of these sites did not find an image, doesn't get you in the clear, the ONLY way to be 100% certain is to have paperwork or create the images yourself. I suggest you might read the hawaiian art network posts, in regards to "free" wallpaper images.. there are also single photographers that track back their images and send out nasty grams.. I guess it comes down to if you want to gamble or not. I have since stopped using images unless I create them.

Well ... you can approach 100% certainty if you are careful, but I dont think you can ever be 100% certain.
I doubt Getty does much due dilegence to make sure their contributors are posting original material.  If someone sees their work on your website, they could come after you.  If one is taking comfort in the fact that you have Getty license receipts, then one should study the idemnity clauses in the license contract.  I think the sense of comfort would evaporate.
Not even taking your own pictures is 100% certain. There have been cases of people losing lawsuits in which their own photo (that they took themselves) looked too much like a Getty photo.  Here's a UK case I remembered:
http://www.epuk.org/News/233/getty-images-wins-plagiarism-appeal
I think you can even find some cases where photographers have gotten into trouble for photographing copyrighted works of art.

So, yes, if you are careful, taking your own photos is low risk in my opinion.  I don't think it's ever 100% certain though.

Copyright law is outdated, lobbied and legislated to the point of insanity, and in severe need of reform, in my opinion.

mreams

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Re: Got the letter ....A question and my plan....
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2012, 12:55:52 PM »
There are way to many what ifs.  In the future I will check my images against the Getty database and check them with reverse image lookup sites, I might even take the odd picture myself.

I guess if you want to be 100% safe do nothing, never post anything on any website, and never leave home or get out of bed.  Of course I am being sarcastic but you can't let fear of a small chance something will happen stop you stop you from doing what you want.

Peeved

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Re: Got the letter ....A question and my plan....
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2012, 04:34:41 PM »
Ok for what it's worth.....

I can understand mreams frustration. I think the idea here is that if you are going to take the risk of using images not your own, your best option would be to indeed do those reverse searches and perhaps stick to some of the free sites on Mcfilms list posted in this forum. Obviously there are a lot of us here who no longer wish to take this risk.

I guess if you want to be 100% safe do nothing, never post anything on any website, and never leave home or get out of bed.  Of course I am being sarcastic but you can't let fear of a small chance something will happen stop you stop you from doing what you want.

I also can understand Lettered's point however, the risk of being sued for taking ones own photograph is something that I personally do not worry about. The example given in the UK case is pretty unusual. I don't think it would be the "norm" for most amateur photographers. I would have no issue going out and taking a photo of a couple kissing on a carousel and using it. I doubt seriously that it would look anything like the image in question. On that note however, when I first looked at the two photos in the UK case, my first thought was that it was BS, that the two photos were obviously NOT the same photo! I could see why the case went on for four years with an APPEAL!

Not even taking your own pictures is 100% certain. There have been cases of people losing lawsuits in which their own photo (that they took themselves) looked too much like a Getty photo.  Here's a UK case I remembered:
http://www.epuk.org/News/233/getty-images-wins-plagiarism-appeal
I think you can even find some cases where photographers have gotten into trouble for photographing copyrighted works of art.

I was curious about the UK case and the image involved. Here is the link to the image on Getty's site:

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/photo/couple-kissing-on-merry-go-round-high-res-stock-photography/AB25725

Also interesting I searched the U.S. Copyright Website and found only 4 registrations for the photographer of this image. This photo does not appear to be included in the search by "name":

# Name (NALL) <  Full Title  Copyright Number  Date 
  [ 1 ]  Sanderson, Ian  [Payne Stewart commemorative print]  VA0001070949  2000 
  [ 2 ]  Sanderson, Ian  Payne Stewart commemorative print / VA 1-070-949.  V3521D420  2005 
  [ 3 ]  Sanderson, Ian Moffat  Ariane.  VA0001628288  2008 
  [ 4 ]  Sanderson, Ian R.  WALKER'S PEDIATRIC GASTROINTESTINAL DISEASE Pathophysiology, Diagnosis, Management, Fifth Edition.  TX0007248959  2008 


« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 06:31:07 PM by Peeved »

Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi)

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Re: Got the letter ....A question and my plan....
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2012, 05:36:10 PM »

I'm doing some homework on any patterns as to when Getty and others send out letters, I've been noticing a trend, where the forums seem to get quiet, and then all of a sudden get busy again.. I can't help but think that Getty tends to send out letters on a monthly basis all in one shot. If anywould would like to volunteer when their letters were dated it would help in my research, I f a pattern emerges I'll have a look at how hawaiian art network operates as well..it might just be me, but in talking with Matt recently, we discussed the fact that it's usually quiet right before the storm.. This would lend credibility to the fact that you can't use the date of the letter as date of the infringement discovery.....Poor mail mail must hate to pick up Getty's mail on the dates in questions...if it pans out

So I've looked thru literally hundreds of posts going back several years, and also has some folks send me dates , the dates seems to be spread out all over, no obvious patterns, with the exception that some letter seems to "sit around" before actually getting mailed...

On another note has anybody noticed that Hawaiian Art Network has seemed to fall silent?
Most questions have already been addressed in the forums, get yourself educated before making decisions.

Any advice is strictly that, and anything I may state is based on my opinions, and observations.
Robert Krausankas

I have a few friends around here..

Lettered

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Re: Got the letter ....A question and my plan....
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2012, 08:53:44 PM »
Peeved,  I do agree that under most circumstances using our own images is very low risk.  By the way here is an example of one that went the other way ... it is a US case that Getty won (in a big way) when they got sued for infringement. 
http://www.photosource.com/cpyright/cpysep04.html

Peeved

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Re: Got the letter ....A question and my plan....
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2012, 10:07:46 PM »
Peeved,  I do agree that under most circumstances using our own images is very low risk.  By the way here is an example of one that went the other way ... it is a US case that Getty won (in a big way) when they got sued for infringement. 
http://www.photosource.com/cpyright/cpysep04.html

Personally I feel that the first judge in the (FNOTSI) case got it right when the judge ruled that "since the central concept being pictured – a couple kissing – could not itself be copyrighted, there was no case to answer." which Getty appealed. How NICE for Getty to come out smelling like a rose on BOTH sides of the coin though regarding the Penny Gentieu case! 

What is even more disturbing to me regarding the Penny Gentieu link that Lettered provided, are the OTHER cases on that page which show examples of images that courts have found to be substantially similar (NOT!), the Wheelchair for example! So don't anybody go taking any photographs of an empty wheelchair by a fence! UNREAL!

Thanks for the post Lettered! 
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 12:37:30 AM by Peeved »

SoylentGreen

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Re: Got the letter ....A question and my plan....
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2012, 12:30:22 AM »
Anyone else recall that Getty was sued for imitating the work of one of it's former contributors who quit because Getty began paying less and less?
Getty won.  Kind of ironic.

"...the Judge granted Getty’s motion for attorneys’ fees in the amount of† $728.308.23 -- an extraordinary amount, especially given that there had been no trial and that it took nearly three years for Getty to acknowledge and pay over $100,000 in undisputed royalty fees.† What’s more, even though the appeal was fully briefed and oral argument was set for October, 2003, the Court ordered that the attorneys’ fee judgment be paid by September 12... Getty quickly sought to execute the judgment -- which would have happened before the appeal took place unless Gentieu was able to post a substantial bond (she wasn’t). Gentieu suddenly faced the real prospect of losing not just her tangible assets, but also all rights to her entire image collection."

http://www.illustratorspartnership.org/01_topics/article.php?searchterm=00135

S.G.


 

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