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Author Topic: HAN / Copyright Services International Settlement Notification Phone Call  (Read 20609 times)

Matthew Chan

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Glen,

Feel free to start a new discussion thread / topic if you feel it is warranted. There is a great deal of flexibility of how people can participate on the ELI Forums.

I think it is safe to say that some in the ELI Community are probably a bit apprehensive of your participation given that HAN has filed suit and currently have demand letters against some of our participants.

To those folks, I would simply say that whether Glen participates or not, most of the copyright enforcement staff from all the major stock photo agencies read the ELI Forums. We have nothing to lose to hear what he has to say.

I think this is an opportunity for an interesting experiment to see if there is a possibility of a meeting of the minds.


I look foward to posting on these forums daily and addressing the concerns that have been brought up  on the appropriate thread.  The outcome may not be as glamorous or conspiratorial as expected but there is still plenty of anger and frustration to go around as a result of the current law and how it's utilized by stock photo agencies.  I don't have as much flexibility on the HAN issues but will do my best to contribute as a member of CSI.  Thanks guys and expect more tomorrow.
I'm a non-lawyer but not legally ignorant either. Under the 1st Amendment, I have the right to post facts & opinions using rhetorical hyperbole, colloquialisms, metaphors, parody, snark, or epithets. Under Section 230 of CDA, I'm only responsible for posts I write, not what others write.

Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi)

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I don't have as much flexibility on the HAN issues but will do my best to contribute as a member of CSI.  Thanks guys and expect more tomorrow.

Naturally this would be the case now that you have a counter suit thrown back at you..problem is most if not all of our issues are with Hawaiian Art Network and Vincent K Tylor. I like how you state "utilize" the law...more like twisting, bending and distorting the law to fulfill YOUR own selfish needs.
Most questions have already been addressed in the forums, get yourself educated before making decisions.

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Well, I have to say that I am pleasantly surprised to see anyone for HAN or CSI come forward to get into the debate. Along with Matthew Chan, I ask all our posters and contributors to keep the dialog respectful and on a high level. It is important that all stock photo agencies recognize that ELI is not supporting copyright infringement in any way shape or form. We simply feel its wrong to use threatening letters to force people into paying settlement amounts far in excess of what the infringement is worth - particularly when those letters make claims of criminal penalties and excessive fines that would never apply to the misuse of a single thumbnail image. Our second biggest gripe is the failure of these stock photo agencies to realize that the vast majority of website owners who receive these letters did not choose their own images and relied upon a third party to do so. They are normally  shocked and upset about it and it has been my experience never hesitate in taking the images off once they learn of the infringement claim. Yet, this conduct is never given any credit and the settlement demands and flurry of letters continues on; this despite the Copyright Act's protection for innocent infringers.   

With respect to HAN and CSI Glenn, as you likely know, I have been able to reach an amicable settlement several times with your respective lawyer(s) when a calm, rational, law-based discussion is had between us. For example, despite the sometimes rancorous flak that Peter Holt received on here a little while ago, recently he and I were able to quickly resolve a claim he was handling for HAN to everyone's mutual satisfaction. So it makes me a bit angry when I see that despite these positive interactions., HAN and CSI continue to pound people with the same exorbitant, threatening demands. You know what these images are worth and the various defenses to serious damages that can be raised yet you continue on the same path. 

Specifically to discuss HAN, though I realize your hands may be tied there due to the on-going  Aloha Plastic Surgery case, HAN or anyone affiliated with HAN will never be completely trusted until this issue of "seeding" free wallpaper and free images sites is explained, resolved or proven wrong. There are three possibilities:

(1) The conspiracy theorists are correct and Vincent Tylor and HAN (or others acting on their behalf) have intentionally placed their images on so many "free" sites that you can still find them 15 pages deep into a Google search.  If this is ever proven to be true, then everyone affiliated with HAN should be investigated and criminal penalties for fraud and larceny may be applicable. Since I tend to be more of a "the glass is half full" kind of guy, I will go on assuming that this is not the case;

(2) HAN had nothing to do with their images being released all over the place for free and is mad as hell that this mass infringement is going on and is taking no prisoners in its attempt to stop this proliferation of piracy. That is what the community would expect for a company that places such a high value on its images that it threatens people with jail time in its demand letters. We haven't seen that kind of response, which lends credence to theory (1) above and theory (3) which  follows;

(3) HAN had nothing to do with their images being released all over the place for free but is letting it go for now because it is generating a great deal of money for the infringement side of the business. I think this is the most plausible scenario. But if HAN and/or CSI were able to resolve this issue once and for all, I think it will go a long way to achieving what you want - people respecting Mr. Tylor's work and paying the appropriate license fee for its use.                             

I could go on about other issues, but this as good a place to start the dialogue as any. Thank you once again for joining us in this discussion and I look forward to a healthy, substantive dialogue. 
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 02:39:59 PM by Matthew Chan »

Extortion-Victim-No Longer

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Matt is correct on all points.  Lynne has been instructed to be understanding, professional, and empathetic in her communications.  Her email clearly shows this and I am pleased you recognize that CSI is using a different approach to resolve the unlicensed use of the artist's images without any mention of penalties or copyright law that typically is included in an attorney's C & D letter.

I recognize that receiving a C & D letter from an attorney who spells out the penalties of copyright infringement can be shocking.  Unfortunately, no other method has shown to be effective in dealing with companies that are using a photographer's images for products and services without paying for it except for legal recourse. 

CSI is moving towards ELI's goal of reducing the shock and stress resulting from the recovery process on behalf of the photographers and agencies we serve.  This may be naive, but hopefully it's successful and amicable resolutions can be worked out without the distress that resulted in the creation of these forums in the first place.

I look forward to representing CSI on these forums.

I have been following most posts regarding anything to do with Vincent k Tylor & Hawaiian Art Network ever since it became known on the ELI site. Now that Glen Carner has chosen to represent Hawaiian Art Network on ELI, I have a few comments to make. I hope I can make my point as respectfully as I possibly can.

After all that is being said concerning HAN & VKT, I wondered how this was all being processed on their end.
I was pursued for $10,000 by a lawyer (Brandon Sand) that Glen Carner & Vincent Tylor hired as a result of using one of his photos I found on a freewallpapers website. The photo was 300pixels by 225pixels & was on my website for approximately 2-3 weeks.

I was self taught in computer & internet-land & was grossly ignorant of the laws of infringement. Because of everything that has happened to me as a result of this ignorance, the settlement letter & threats I received, I am now well aware & more cautious than ever. I deleted every photo I had thought free leaving me with zero photos & a very limp website. I have since re-built it with the help & permissions of friends & family. Prior to this incident, I have never willingly or knowingly broken any laws in my life except for going over the speed limit on the odd long straight stretch...I am proud to be honest at all times, loyal, loving & respectful & most importantly being the best mother I can possibly be. I am a full time stay at home mother & loving wife.

The most important part of my existence is my son. He is number 1 in my life & always will be. I would give up anything in the world for him, make any sacrifices.

I consider myself fairly intelligent but also naive. I lack education in some areas but have compensated for that by realising there is always something to learn & the more you know the better. I made a mistake in thinking the photo I found on the free wallpapers website was okay to use. You can't imagine how stupid I felt when I started reading about copyright laws. There it was in black & white, I was guilty. It didn't matter that I did it innocently, I was still guilty. It didn't matter that I immediately deleted the photo which wasn't even on my website by the time I received the settlement letter, demanding $10,000 in one month's time. It didn't matter that I was sorry & actually felt bad for the artist this happened to. And it didn't matter that I was submerged with fear & drowning in my own pool of tears. My fear & sadness of what was to come was as fierce as the stance Brandon Stand took on being paid.

I am surprised that I am still invested in all of this since I am the kind of person who deals with issues and leaves them in the past...I move on, I have moved on...BUT! I will NEVER NEVER NEVER forget being so afraid of being sent to prison for 5 years & being taken away from my son! I was threatened to pay up $$$$$ or pay the consequences which could be up to a $250,000 fine & up to 5 years of prison! I believed this was a real threat. I didn't have the money, I had no savings & was not earning an income at the time. I was newly married to a man who had just lost his 22 year old daughter in a sudden tragic death. My husband was starting over financially, we couldn't pay even if we wanted to & no one to ask for it. My husband was angry & wanted me to fight it but all I could think about was what was going to happen to my son when I was behind bars.

To spend just one day in that state of mind was unbearable & it went on for more than 3 weeks. I love to garden, get my hands in the soil to create beauty within my surroundings. It is a place I feel whole, happy & when I tried to escape the nightmares I was facing, I broke down in front of my family. My father was there to witness it one day...I remember the look on his face when he saw me sobbing & he promised me I would never spend one day in prison. It was the first time I felt the sunshine in my heart because when love shines through in the darkest moments, it is more powerful than anything.

Going back in time to when this all began, I contacted Vincent Tylors wife in an attempt to plead with Mr. Tylor but she answered the phone. I could barely speak as I made the call during one of my crying & panic episodes. I told her that I was so scared & what would my son do with me being in jail? I told her I had no idea that what I had done was wrong. I apologised with all my heart & told her about my financial situation. She was very kind & told me that no one goes to jail & advised me to call Glen Carter who is a very understanding man & to communicate with him.

I did call Glen Carter, again in tears, he informed me to discuss it with Brandon Sand. I pleaded with Brandon Sand...many times, begged him to give me a break, doing all I could to prove I couldn't pay & didn't have the funds. I called Glen Carner a second time & received the same former  response. After many calls & emails to Brandon Sand, I made one final phone call, sobbing as always, I told him how scared I was & what would happen to my son if I went to jail? He said pay the money & that will no longer be a concern. I finally asked him where the humanity was in all of this & his answer was, "the humanity in all this is to pay the money".

It was in that moment that I became angry & I found ELI & Oscar. One phone call to ELI & I was no longer the blubbering, pathetic & fearful half person I had been for over 3 weeks. They immediately relieved my deepest fears that no one in my circle could release.

This is happening to a lot of people, it isn't right even if the law says it's right when something is advertised as free, it's no wonder that so many people are making the same mistake, unknowingly.

Recently, someone even wrote about feeling suicidal over $700! These letters may be lining pockets with gold but they are also damaging people's lives, especially those who can't pay.

I write this summary of the experience I went through because even though in the end I was guilty for being ignorant of the law, I want others to know they are not alone & hopefully save them from shedding a few tears & fear filled nights awake. I am a strong person who is not scared of much & I certainly don't cry very often unless I am threatened by something like prison. The truth of the matter is that these photos found on freewallpaper sites and such are making artists, lawyers & picscout a lot of money. Whatever way/ways these images are getting out there, either by mistake or intentionally, substantial earnings are being generated by the result of people's fear, ignorance & innocent infringements. Which is worse?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 01:37:18 PM by Extortion-Victim-No Longer »
Kim

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ExtortionVictimNoMore, thanks for posting that summary of what you've been through. I'm looking forward to reading Glen Carner's response.

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ExtortionVictimNoMore, thanks for posting that summary of what you've been through. I'm looking forward to reading Glen Carner's response.

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Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi)

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EVNL, thanx again for sharing this, you have suffered the most of all the letter and experiences I have encountered thus far, but you made it through and can now move onward..Karma will have it's place..Brandon Sand, Vincent K Tylor, his wife and Glen Carner should all be ashamed of themselves, but they are too consumed with making money by preying on hapless victims. It must suck to be morally and ethically bankrupt, what a lowly way to go thru life..
Most questions have already been addressed in the forums, get yourself educated before making decisions.

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Extortion-Victim-No Longer

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Thanks for your comments, I hope my experience may shed some light to whomever may need it...
Kim

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EVNL, thanks for lending your voice to an issue that affects good people on a daily basis.
We talk about the laws on the forum a lot, but there's definitely a human aspect to this.
I can't imagine how many people have suffered in fear because of what in my opinion is greed.

S.G.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 02:40:34 PM by Matthew Chan »

Matthew Chan

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Wow, this thread has become super-charged thanks to Glen.

Let me say I am not a big fan of melodrama and uncontrollable emotions because it clouds the ability to think and process. I also discourage it because it gives the "other side" too much power due to a person's own naivete and ignorance.  As adults, no matter how we feel, we have a certain responsibility to "get it together" to deal with the problem at hand.

Having said that EVNL was the first person who publicly dealt with HAN, contacted us, and getting an outrageous $10K letter gets some special consideration here.  She had the wherewithal to do some research and look for help. She wasn't cheap about it and she hired Oscar.  This set in motion a series of events that led to a devastating PR campaign that ran Brandon Sand out of the business and a very favorable settlement for her.  Today, she can speak freely with no repercussion because she is part of the well-read, highly-credible platform called the ELI Forums.

Fortunately, EVNL learned a lot as have we all as a community and all of the participants give something of themselves when they post "passing it forward" to others.  In a roundabout way, EVNL ultimately got her way because she "compelled" Glen to finally come out to discuss the issues two years later. Simply amazing.

With ELI's powerful standing in the Google search engines, it doesn't take long for the uninitiated collection lawyer to feel the impact of our relentless and piercing coverage, reporting, and callout activities.

You see, the secret is out. Readers of ELI know there are ways of fighting back inexpensively WITHOUT their cooperation. The ELI Defense Team & Community is very good at what we do.  And to think, we only do this in our spare time.

I have promised Glen that I would not delete his messages or allow over-the-top behavior, profanity, name-calling, and other inappropriate behavior against him here on the ELI Forums. But I certainly have no problem with people challenging and questioning Glen. I am not overly optimistic about the answers we will get because the ELI community can ask some very hard questions. But no one can say, he didn't have a platform to speak from.

What Glen needs to know is the power of anger, revenge, and vindication.  When people get hurt or feel immensely threatened, people will devote their personal energies to retaliation and vindication. Like it or not, it is just the way it is.

Glen seems to understand this now and attempting to calm the ELI community down by reaching out. Oscar has some good theories and makes some good points that as long as the Vincent Tylor issue is answered satisfactorily, HAN's credibility will always be suspect.

The next step is Glen's. He has a platform to communicate worldwide. We will see how it is used or if he changes his mind and withdraws.
I'm a non-lawyer but not legally ignorant either. Under the 1st Amendment, I have the right to post facts & opinions using rhetorical hyperbole, colloquialisms, metaphors, parody, snark, or epithets. Under Section 230 of CDA, I'm only responsible for posts I write, not what others write.

Extortion-Victim-No Longer

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Let me say I am not a big fan of melodrama and uncontrollable emotions because it clouds the ability to think and process. I also discourage it because it gives the "other side" too much power due to a person's own naivete and ignorance.  As adults, no matter how we feel, we have a certain responsibility to "get it together" to deal with the problem at hand.

I completely agree & well said. I know I would never have lost emotional control if the threat was only about the money, however, the fear of being separated from my son won over...but you are right, I wasted time & strength being fearful when I should have been finding a solution sooner than I had.
Kim

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Wow this is going to be a great thread and Glen, I give you credit for having the courage to come here and talk to us.  Like mcfilms said, I do not agree with your current business model.  I would like to know how you justify asking for outrages amounts after it is shown that the person has either innocently or un-willfully infringed an image.  How can companies like HAN/VKT seem to turn a blind eye to anyone who can show they have used one of your images innocently? Why not a simple cease and desist letter or if you/HAN feel there must be damages paid not the 200.00 minimum fine that is routinely used for innocent/ non-willful infringers.   I know what the law says, you are guilty regardless of how the image was obtained but wouldn’t it serve your company, its reputation, and the artist you represent much better to show a little compassion and understanding rather than demanding outrages sums and threatening jail time?

Again Glen, I thank you and I appreciate your willingness to come and talk to us and I hope you will remain a part of this forum.

I would also like to invite any Getty representatives to show the same amount of courage Glen has shown and join us.  I personally have MANY questions I would like answered from you.


I look foward to posting on these forums daily and addressing the concerns that have been brought up  on the appropriate thread.  The outcome may not be as glamorous or conspiratorial as expected but there is still plenty of anger and frustration to go around as a result of the current law and how it's utilized by stock photo agencies.  I don't have as much flexibility on the HAN issues but will do my best to contribute as a member of CSI.  Thanks guys and expect more tomorrow.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 12:45:34 PM by Matthew Chan »
Every situation is unique, any advice or opinions I offer are given for your consideration only. You must decide what is best for you and your particular situation. I am not a lawyer and do not offer legal advice.

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I would like to know how you justify asking for outrages amounts after it is shown that the person has either innocently or un-willfully infringed an image.  How can companies like HAN/VKT seem to turn a blind eye to anyone who can show they have used one of your images innocently? Why not a simple cease and desist letter or if you/HAN feel there must be damages paid not the 200.00 minimum fine that is routinely used for innocent/ non-willful infringers.   I know what the law says, you are guilty regardless of how the image was obtained but wouldn’t it serve your company, its reputation, and the artist you represent much better to show a little compassion and understanding rather than demanding outrages sums and threatening jail time?

For the answer to this, look at Matt's questions No. 8 and No. 9 in another topic:
8. What are the actual split percentages of a typical settlement?  ELI has estimated a 60/40 split whereby 60% goes to the stock photo agency and 40% to the collection lawyer.  Out of "your" portion, how much goes to HAN, the photographer, PicScout, and any other parties you distribute proceeds to?

9. What percentage of your revenues come from straight sales and licensing vs. infringement settlements?

Glen Carner's answer to Matt's questions No. 8 and No. 9:
#8/9 - Unfortunately I cant comment on this.  Sorry.

Translation of "Unfortunately I cant [sic] comment on this. Sorry.":

It's all about the money, so screw individual circumstances, individual explanations, and anything else that affects the size of the payment we can extract with whatever bullying tactics we and others using extrajudicial settlement demand schemes can come up with.

Geesh.

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Mulligan, that's a possibility but we owe Mr. Carnen the benefit of the doubt. He did mention that he can't comment on HAN specifically because there's ongoing litigation. Those are good questions and may actually end up being part of the discovery process.

After the litigation is concluded, of course it's up to Mr. Carnen to answer those questions. I know he's made statements along the lines of question 9 in the past, but I would be curious to hear an update:

Quote
Since teaming up with PicScout, Hawaiian Art Network has experienced strong revenue recovery. Recovered revenue now accounts for about 50% of Hawaiian Art Network’s income,

Source: http://www.picscout.com/images/stories/pdfs/HawaiianArtNetwork.pdf (on page 4)

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Great thread!  Extortion-Victim-No Longer thanks for sharing your motivation in this fight.

We are all together in a common fight for what we believe is right.  Our motivations may be different.  I like to think that mine is to "fight for truth, justice, and the American way."  (hope I didn't infringe on any copyrights there)  But we are all in the same battle.

I, for one, am happy that Extortion-Victim-No Longer may have brought Mr. Carner here to give us a counterpoint.  I hope he can help change some of the practices that have united us so strongly.  If he is only here to try and mollify some of the readers of this forum and not correct the abuses of his industry, his time might be better spent playing tiddly winks.

 

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