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Author Topic: Invalidate response  (Read 21255 times)

lucia

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Re: Invalidate response
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2012, 09:44:11 AM »
However, I am stunned at your response. Does it really need to be said that aggressively defending and fighting back is not meant to be a comfortable, cruise-ship experience?

No. But I don't see why I should actively take steps to make it more unpleasant for myself by doing something that I think likely makes no difference to whether it's uncomfortable for Getty clerks many of whom are merely paper shuffling. 

I also tend to think the facts of the case make a bigger difference than the mode of communication.  Bear in mind, my case is one of hotlinking of a single, blurred, cropped image image during a blog discussion that would likely make copying of the image fair use even if I'd hosted the image. Licenses to display the image on the web are sold by the photographer's heirs through their Photoshelter hosted storefront, meaning that Getty either does not have the exclusive license or they are not enforcing their exclusive license.  Not only are images available at the author's web site: Digital versions at better resolutions are available for download for free. So Getty's case is flimsier than usual. Knowing this, I am both willing to risk going to court and to go to court if sued.

I do not believe that in my case, Getty's decision to sue or not sue or even to stop wasting their time with internal discussions or sending email is going to be based on whether or not I am spending money on paper and postage.   


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In what I wrote, did you somehow get the impression that my advice was meant for YOUR, MINE, or ANYONE ELSE's personal comfort or preferred mode of communication?

When I said I was going to use my preferred mode of communication, I was responding to Buddhapi not you.   I understood Buddhapi to be suggesting that the fact that receiving snail mail letters was annoying was a reason I should send them to Getty. He may be correct.  But I'm more concerned about whether something annoys me than whether it annoys them.  I prefer email and gave that as my reason for using email.

I wasn't under the impression that by sending email I was following your advice. I'm making my own choice for my own reasons. 

Quote
They aim to get the message across effectively and that almost always means snail-mail, not because lawyers are incapable or unwilling to use email.
I can see all sorts of reasons an attorney who has been hired sends snail mail letters.  I don't think those necessarily translate into evidence that messages sent from non-attorneys come across more effectively by snail-mail than email.  I could be mistaken on this, but if so, then the person who will experience the fall out will be me.

I don't care whether the clerks at Getty think I am a high powered professional. My initial aim was merely to get Getty to drop this matter with the minimum fuss, expense and discomfort to me.  My aim has also expanded; I now also want to extract as much information about their operations as I can while still avoiding a suit.

So, I want them to see that I am not going to cave in for no good reason.  I think the best way to do this is not caving in when their case is absolutely flimsy.   If several emails are exchanged, that's ok with me. I'll post the contents here and we'll learn what Getty writes.

Moving to a more general matter, as an empirical matter,I don't think we actually know if sending email or snail mail is "better".  I think we haven't whether in the end Getty is more aggressive with those who communicate by email or snail-mail because we don't have cases comparing Getty's response in both situations.  So it interests me to do the experimet.   I'll be using email and  I'll let you know how many emails it takes.   

So far I've received:
1) The initial demand letter by snail mail. I responded to the letter provided by email.

2) An email response from "Sam Brown". I responded to "Sam Brown" by email. It's been over a month and Getty has not responded.

3) A letter that appeared to be spontaneously generated by the system. I responded by email sending it both to Getty Litigation and Sam Brown telling Getty Litigation to contact Sam Brown to get the previous communication.  Sam responded by email in 10 minutes to apologize for sending the 2nd letter by mistake and informed me that my " December 20, 2011 e-mail (received) is still under review in our department."


If I get additional communications, I'll report them.  I'm actually hoping I do receive an email response to my requests for proof of copyright and an explanation of how they come up with their settlement demand. If I can get those, I'll  share them. So to the extent that email might make Getty more willing to communicate and send answers rather than cut off communication to save the cost of postage or paper I prefer that.  (Others might not. But I do.)

Though others may feel differently, if I end up exchanging emails at the rate of one every month for 3 years, I would still prefer email as a mode of communication to snail mail.

I rather liked being able to send the email to two in boxes telling the Getty people to communicate with each other before sending me letters. I rather liked the Getty representative sending the apology within 10 minutes of my sending my email.  I do think with future email I am going to request that they send me a confirmation that they received the email. I'll put a note in my tickle file and if  If they don't confirm receipt within a week, I'll resend the body of the email to multiple parties along with a preface requesting someone let me know if they received the email.

I think I would switch to certified letter should I ever get to the point where I am suggesting a settlement of any monetary value. In that event, I have learned I would like evidence of they received my email; with snail mail I could have that if I paid to send certified letters.  But I think I can just pester getty for responses and leave sending certified letters as an option for a later time.

So for now, for my reasons outlined above, I'm sticking with the mode of communication I prefer.  I'm not telling others they should do as I do. I am entirely aware that I am not following your advice. I am making my own decision.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 12:05:19 PM by lucia »

Jerry Witt (mcfilms)

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Re: Invalidate response
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2012, 12:05:57 PM »
In the future, can you ask Getty to cc [email protected]?

;)
Although I may be a super-genius, I am not a lawyer. So take my scribblings for what they are worth and get a real lawyer for real legal advice. But if you want media and design advice, please visit Motion City at http://motioncity.com.

lucia

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Re: Invalidate response
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2012, 12:24:17 PM »
I could. I could also cc you guys when I email them.  That would bring a 3rd party into the loop which I think would be to my advantage.  One reason I would like that is I noticed this in the footer from the reply from Sam Brown:

Quote
©2012 Getty Images, Inc.
PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL
This message may contain privileged or confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail or any attachments hereto. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail and any attachments from your system without copying or disclosing the contents. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required please request a hard-copy version. Getty Images, 605 5th Ave South, Suite 400, USA, www.gettyimages.com. PLEASE NOTE that all incoming e-mails will be automatically scanned by us and by an external service provider to eliminate unsolicited promotional e-mails ("spam"). This could result in deletion of a legitimate e-mail before it is read by its intended recipient at our firm. Please tell us if you have concerns about this automatic filtering

So, in my next email response to Getty, I was planning to write something to communicate that:
1) I have chosen email because their letters request that mode of communication. Specifically they write "For questions or to settle the matter, please contact [email protected] or call 1-800-972-4170"
2) Responses from Sam Brown now warn me that Getty may lose incoming email.

As their preferred method of communication is email but they are aware that their system sometimes loses email, I am concerned my always timely communications to them might be lost.  To allay my concerns, I would like them to promptly affirm they have received my email.   If it's ok to copy the forum I would happy to tell Getty that I am doing so to have an independent witness to the fact that I replied. :)

SoylentGreen

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Re: Invalidate response
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2012, 12:30:39 PM »
Or, don't pay, stop talking with them, have a couple of brewski's and enjoy life.
Hell, spring's coming.  F'-em.
lol.

S.G.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 03:58:33 PM by Matthew Chan »

Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi)

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Re: Invalidate response
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2012, 12:34:11 PM »
I can only imagine this would upset Sam Brown, they don't like us airing their dirty laundry for all to see. My guess would be that any and all communications are priveledged and confidential, and perhaps even copyrighted! We've been down this road in the past. Naturally it's only confidential if BOTH parties agree to such in writing..
Most questions have already been addressed in the forums, get yourself educated before making decisions.

Any advice is strictly that, and anything I may state is based on my opinions, and observations.
Robert Krausankas

I have a few friends around here..

Robert Krausankas (BuddhaPi)

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Re: Invalidate response
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2012, 12:37:16 PM »
Or, don't pay, stop talking with them, have a couple of brewski's and enjoy life.
Hell, spring's coming.  F'-em.
lol.

S.G.

Theres also this! I can see where Lucia is coming from with the emails, the main reason I would do it differently is for the nuisance factor, hell if they are going to waste my time and energy, I may as well make them do the same..especially if it get escalated to McCormack, at that point I would demand everything be sent certified mail, and any emails will be promptly rejected.. If it gets that far, it's clearly time to run up the billable hours for Getty..
Most questions have already been addressed in the forums, get yourself educated before making decisions.

Any advice is strictly that, and anything I may state is based on my opinions, and observations.
Robert Krausankas

I have a few friends around here..

SoylentGreen

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Re: Invalidate response
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2012, 01:49:21 PM »
In all seriousness, just so everybody knows, there's quite a bit of "plausible deniability" with emails.
One can send an email to another person, and that person can simply say "I never got it".
So, we should keep this sort of thing in mind when dealing with legalities.

Anyway, I'm going to enjoy some Canadian beer (it's Monday, you know), play the best sport in the world (hockey!), then go for some free healthcare just for shits and giggles.

S.G.



lucia

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Re: Invalidate response
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2012, 01:55:51 PM »
SoylentGreen,
There is also plausible deniability when you snail-mail dead tree versions too.  I've had people "never get" important-to-me- things <i>I've snail-mailed</i> and I have no idea how Getty could prove a trollee received the demand letters they sent.  (I know for a fact person who "never got" the important-to-me thinkg I knew for sure he'd gotten it because he'd passed it along to someone I chatted with who willingly told me he'd read it!)

Certified letters prevent plausible deniability with snail-mail.  My plan forward is to ask Getty staff to send a brief confirmation they received my email. Right now I'll look to see if there are any tracing systems for email. Maybe there are now.

SoylentGreen

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Re: Invalidate response
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2012, 02:46:22 PM »
Lucia made a good point about regular mail, too.

Anyway, while most wouldn't say "ignore them", what's the point of engaging these people (Getty) after making them an offer?
If they refuse it, what the point of further communication?  They'll just say "you have to pay".
So, you either pay, or don't.  They already know that they're usually in the wrong legally and many people have told them that.
What's the point of wasting time debating it?

They don't normally sue people over 1 or two images.
If they threaten to sue (through McCormack), I would then state my legal standing informally.
Or pay it.  But, there's no real "discussion", as they're not going to change their position.

They're making you "work", and that's what they want.

S.G.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 03:43:03 PM by Matthew Chan »

lucia

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Re: Invalidate response
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2012, 03:12:33 PM »
S.G.
Quote
Anyway, while most wouldn't say "ignore them", what's the point of engaging these people (Getty) after making them an offer?
I haven't made them an offer.   In my first email I communicated my position which is I did not infringe at all. I cited the Perfect 10 v Amazon case.   They disagreed, assigned the case to Sam Brown who  wrote back some nonsense including telling me that unlike Amazon or Google I was not covered by DMAC. I wrote back and quoted the parts of the ruling that noted DMAC was irrelevant to the ruling in favor of Amazon and Google because hotlinking is not copying under the US copyright act.   I have  had no official response to that-- but I got a snail mail 'escalation' letter.  I emailed Sam and their compliance department pointing out that there was an ongoing discussion with Sam Brown and requesting the compliance department as Sam for the previous communications. I told them I would like them I was eager to discuss the issue with them but I would like them to read my previous communications first so as not to waste my time and theirs.

Within 10 minutes of sending that email I got an apology from Sam Brown who told me my case was still pending review. 

From my POV I benefited from this exchange in a number of ways.

Matthew Chan

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Re: Invalidate response
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2012, 03:56:33 PM »
I would say that in Lucia's case, she has the "good fortune" in the hot-linking issue vs most other people's mistakes.  That is most definitely NOT clear cut.  Making that one argument and slapping that down should ultimately take care of it, email or otherwise. But how many email exchanges remains to be seen.

However, let us not forget that Sam Brown is now getting public exposure on these forums that he has not before. He has to be careful what he says and his team knows that.

Lucia, you have a good chance of making this go away by virtue of your particular hot-linking issue and the fact that Sam Brown knows that your case has "gone public" with every single Getty response being scrutinized. They don't like that much scrutiny or publicity because most employee-types are cowards outside of the workplace.

You may believe in having a constructive argument but tell that to the other hundreds of letter recipients who went down that road and see how effective that got them. Having said that, most did not have hot-linking issues.

Ultimately, there is a school of thought of ending this quickly and moving on with life and another school of thought to try to debate and discuss your way out.
I'm a non-lawyer but not legally ignorant either. Under the 1st Amendment, I have the right to post facts & opinions using rhetorical hyperbole, colloquialisms, metaphors, parody, snark, or epithets. Under Section 230 of CDA, I'm only responsible for posts I write, not what others write.

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Re: Invalidate response
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2012, 03:58:10 PM »
I heard that. Sometimes it comes to that when being rational doesn't work.

Or, don't pay, stop talking with them, have a couple of brewski's and enjoy life.
Hell, spring's coming.  F'-em.
lol.

S.G.
I'm a non-lawyer but not legally ignorant either. Under the 1st Amendment, I have the right to post facts & opinions using rhetorical hyperbole, colloquialisms, metaphors, parody, snark, or epithets. Under Section 230 of CDA, I'm only responsible for posts I write, not what others write.

lucia

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Re: Invalidate response
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2012, 04:18:08 PM »
Matt-
I'm not under the illusion that I will have a constructive argument! I suspect Getty will never write 'sorry, you're right. We are wrong. We've decided not to pursue this." Instead, at some point, Getty will just go silent just as they did in your case. 

I'm very glad to have your forum where I can report communications as we exchange them.  I plan to live forever, but one never knows. I know that by reporting as the case progresses, future trollees can have access to information describing Getty's current M.O.

Matthew Chan

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Re: Invalidate response
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2012, 04:18:17 PM »
I agree with you to not cave in for no good reason. I agree with you that their case is very flimsy and you will likely come out on to on that merit alone.

You regard this as an experiment except that the experiment is flawed and already stacked in your favor to begin with by virtue of the hot-linking issue. Most letter recipients, including myself, did not have a hot-linking issue.  My issue was a very small bird image was embedded into a much a larger web header that was custom-designed.  Others, simply made the mistake of going into Google Images and using those saved images within their website. In these cases, I am absolutely sure Getty would not back off so quickly. I know this because this has been reported ad nauseum. That is one reason why Oscar gets so many clients (although he is very good at what he does). The sheer aggravation and annoyance factor has driven people into Oscar's service.

Also, you have (intentionally or not) benefited from the leverage of "coming out" and being so active on ELI. (Thank you for that and good for you.) Copyright trolls don't generally like the publicity, light, and exposure. It is unforgiving and any mistakes they might make is magnified greatly. That also works to your favor.

In retrospect, I would say you have the leisure of running your experiment because you have a lot going for you.  But for most others who don't have such an argument or case as you did and deathly afraid of coming out or speaking out, they will continue to be harassed unless they change their posturing which is why we encourage people to speak out.

If ELI were to be permanently shutdown for whatever reason in the future, I feel very certain that the most of the stock photo companies would revert back into a far more aggressive approach (including yours). The ELI Team and this website is well-read by all the stock photo companies.

You may want to take these other factors into consideration in evaluating your experiment.

Quote
So, I want them to see that I am not going to cave in for no good reason.  I think the best way to do this is not caving in when their case is absolutely flimsy.   If several emails are exchanged, that's ok with me. I'll post the contents here and we'll learn what Getty writes.

Moving to a more general matter, as an empirical matter,I don't think we actually know if sending email or snail mail is "better".  I think we haven't whether in the end Getty is more aggressive with those who communicate by email or snail-mail because we don't have cases comparing Getty's response in both situations.  So it interests me to do the experimet.   I'll be using email and  I'll let you know how many emails it takes. 
I'm a non-lawyer but not legally ignorant either. Under the 1st Amendment, I have the right to post facts & opinions using rhetorical hyperbole, colloquialisms, metaphors, parody, snark, or epithets. Under Section 230 of CDA, I'm only responsible for posts I write, not what others write.

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Re: Invalidate response
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2012, 04:22:56 PM »
Glad to hear it. I would say it is highly likely they will go away in your case.

Thanks for recognizing that the ELI Forums gives every letter recipient a ton of additional leverage. ELI was very tiny and ugly by comparison when I started it in 2008. But it was still good leverage for me even back then.

Today, any letter recipient willing to post has an instant community and support system. And their story gets out to thousands of people well embedded in the search engines. We happily provide a huge platform for anyone that cares to use it.

Matt-
I'm not under the illusion that I will have a constructive argument! I suspect Getty will never write 'sorry, you're right. We are wrong. We've decided not to pursue this." Instead, at some point, Getty will just go silent just as they did in your case. 

I'm very glad to have your forum where I can report communications as we exchange them.  I plan to live forever, but one never knows. I know that by reporting as the case progresses, future trollees can have access to information describing Getty's current M.O.
I'm a non-lawyer but not legally ignorant either. Under the 1st Amendment, I have the right to post facts & opinions using rhetorical hyperbole, colloquialisms, metaphors, parody, snark, or epithets. Under Section 230 of CDA, I'm only responsible for posts I write, not what others write.

 

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