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Messages - DavidVGoliath

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136
With respect to claiming "innocent" infringement as a defence; it appears that the case precedence regarding this was set out in Steven Greenberg Photo. v. Matt Garrett's; quoting specifically

The "innocent infringer" defense under § 405 only applies to "authorized cop[ies] ... from which the copyright notice has been omitted and which [were] publicly distributed by authority of the copyright owner ..." § 405(b) (emphasis added).

Section 405(c) emphasizes this distinction:

(c) Removal of Notice.—Protection under this title is not affected by the removal, destruction, or obliteration of the notice, without the authorization of the copyright owner, from any publicly distributed copies or phonorecords.


Now this precedent might have been superseded, being that the case was tried twenty-two years ago - but, in the event that it hasn't, my understanding of the above is that if a "wallpaper" or "free download" site was offering up images without the consent of the copyright holder (and perhaps even removing copyright notices and/or embedded data when doing so) then this voids any opportunity to claim innocent infringement as a defence.

And yes, I know that there is the suspicion that VKT and/or HAN knowingly made their works available to such sites; personally, I wouldn't know where to start on attempting to prove that (which is not to say that proving such consent or direct uploading is not possible... I just don't know how that would be achieved)

137
First off, I wanted to say thanks for putting out some fairly balanced information, Matthew. In delving in to the VKT case, you've raised points I hadn't considered before and, as a photographer whose work is routinely found without license of permission all over the web, this has been a good lesson in perspective.
I'd also like to lend some of mine, if you will.

On one hand, he is obviously a victim if what he says is true that sleazy offshore companies are co-opting and pirating his images to generate traffic for their own gain.  I have no doubt there are many such companies that lie OUTSIDE the U.S. that do such things.  His claim has a ring of truth to them and I am willing to give VKT some benefit of the doubt on this.

I've had one particular image of my own picked up by quite a few wallpaper sites around the world and have put in a lot of work to get it removed from any site I find it on. It really has been a learning curve fraught with frustration at points and, at this juncture, I think I've manged to to scrub image files from about 60 ~ 70% of the sites that hosted them.

The remaining 30% are proving tricky, as they're seemingly way beyond any legal reach. Some of the sites are spyware bait, expecting you to download a file (for "sponsorship") before you can access the content - and a few more are sites that are hotlinking through to files which have been legitimately licensed by clients of mine. When these sites are operating outside the US and EU, it opens up a can of worms with regards to how to deal with these acts - which doesn't even factor for whether such a removal request will be honored, or if the site owner will simply laugh in my face and say "get lost" (it's usually more profane)

Still: a 70% reduction in proliferation is worth the effort. I'll keep plugging away to scrub as much of the remaining 30% as is humanly possible. This makes me think that VKT could be doing the same thing and, if he hasn't got the time to do so personally, I'm sure that he or HAN could employ someone to do the same thing.

Is it tiring? Yes. Tedious? Damn straight. Demoralizing? You bet... but nothing worth doing is ever easy, and for any shooter who is serious about protecting the value of their work, they need to be pro-active in ensuring that any unauthorised dissemination is nipped in the bud.

However, the rage he appears to be projecting on others is being wrongfully and recklessly redirected to innocent infringers within the U.S.  The problem with VKT's extortion letters are that the amounts he is trying to extract from innocent infringers is too damned high, outrageous, and cannot be easily justified (except within his own vindictive and entitled mind).  He is trying to "correct" wrongs done by others and outsiders by making innocent infringers pay for outsider infringements and piracies.

This is the point of divergence - what constitutes innocence?

For the VKT issue, I can see that people who are not web, tech or legally savvy would look at something labelled "free" and think that may be genuinely the case - but I think the more apt question is "Should this person / company have known better?"

Most of the infringement claims I wind up referring to counsel are for entities which, in my opinion, should damn well have known better. I'm talking about people with journalism or media qualifications, businesses who are routinely in the habit of licensing content, corporations who should be performing due diligence before using material - and yes, even a few lawyers. That last one always surprises me.

As for innocence? That's something that can only be determined once both parties have laid out factual evidence and, unfortunately, that usually means going to court or, at least, court mandated mediation.

Most victims who come to ELI for help do not even question whether they should take down the image. They take them down immediately upon notification. Most are willing to make some kind of financial compensation for the infringement. However, the willingness to pay does not mean people have lost their minds either and get financially raped.

My personal experience runs a little contra to this: in instances where I've offered infringers the ability to retroactively license the images - for upper two or low three digit sums in the majority of instances - a good many responses have been less than pleasant, along with the inevitable stonewalling. I'm then left with a choice as to whether to drop the claim, or kick it up to counsel. It's never an easy choice.

And since we are discussing his public statement, he wants to believe any diminished income he is experiencing is entirely due to piracy.  He, like many desperate artists and software developers, want to ASSUME that every person that infringed on his photo would have paid his fee to use them.  That is a flawed argument.  Some people would never have bought them at all.  Hence, there would not have been any compensation anyway. I am not using that argument as a justification to piracy.  However, from an economic calculation perspective, the calculation of losses are inflated and extremely flawed.

Savvy content creators are well aware that an individual act of piracy does not always equate to a lost sale, because that individual may well not have made the conscious choice to pay for the content instead. What most content creators agree on, though, is that piracy as a societal norm is the issue - the "I'm going to do it because everyone else is" claim.

I actually had a version of that discussion with an infringer once which was along the lines of "Hey, yeah, I took your shot from a Google image search - but do you know how many other sites are using it too?" (I did) "Why are you going after me and not them?" (I was)

It's clear that our laws need to play catch-up with our technologies if we're to make any headway in ensuring that both content creators and consumers get an equally fair shake.

Unsurprisingly, VKT like most photographers, are always bragging/spouting off about how much money they spend and invest in their businesses.

This is usually less to do with bragging than it is as a statement of the input time/knowledge/skills required to get the results... and it's usually aimed at the less-than-knowledgeable potential client who can't quite grasp why a shooter with a certain skill-set might be so costly to hire, or why they charge a premium for their prints or digital files.

If you want to talk about risking real money, trying signing your name to commercial real estate and engage in a storefront business such as retail store, hotels, motels, restaurants, dry cleaners, bars, etc.  Or franchise owners of brand name businesses such as McDonald's, Burger Kings, other chain restaurants, and chain businesses where the entry fee is $100,000 or even higher.  Or how about the landlording business as I am in.  Don't talk to me about financial risk and capital investments. Most business owners would laugh at VKT's remarks because it sounds so pitiful and weak in comparison to other businesses.

I get where you're coming from with this statement, but it's a little apples-to-oranges. The risks faced by "bricks and mortar" business with tangible, physical product are different than those faced by content creators whose work can easily be shared around the world within the space of a few mouse clicks.

Most photographers have an entitlement mentality.  They don't want to acknowledge the technology upheaval devastating their industry.  Apparently, they can't see the glut of ever-improving smartphones and digital cameras being produced and sold each year to amateurs.  Those amateurs have dumped out millions of additional images for far lower price points than the old-timers.  Plus the fact, customers don't value imagery as much because there is so much to choose from. The supply of imagery far exceeds demand regardless of the piracy and infringement factor.  They want to blame it all on piracy and innocent infringers who stupidly downloaded a few photographs and put it up on their website.

I disagree. When you go into business as a photographer - which is to say when you elect to pursue it as a career and your sole source of income - it's a different world. There are some shooters who are quick to pin their lack of success and finances on everything else other than themselves, but the truth is that they haven't embraced the principles of what it takes to be successful in business.

a) You can provide a better quality product / significantly different product than your competition
b) You can provide a lower priced product than your competition
c) You can provide a greater quantity of product than your competition

In business, you generally get to pick two out of three of the above at most, and you better have a good business head on your shoulders. About 80% of my time is spent doing things other than taking pictures, and that's all to ensure that my overall business remains stable.

They feel because they invested so much time and money and years in the photography business, they should be immune to technological upheavals such as those in the movie and publishing industries.  Almost anyone can get a very nice camera today and photo editing software to produce their own. And in fact, with such a low cost and ease of entry, I have seen a number of people do exactly that undercutting the "established photographers".

The best photographers I know embrace change, adapt to it and thrive and yes, it's never been easier to get started in photography. That shouldn't be a threat to anyone - it's just progress. Professionals will always be in demand in my industry so long as we can produce the content our clients want.

VKT claims he is committed to enforcing his copyrights.  Well, Oscar, myself, and the ELI community are equally committed to copyright infringement defense against unjustifiable and outrageous claims against entitled photographers and stock photo agencies.


Whilst I do not dispute that there are some "copyright enforcers" out there who misguidedly think that pursuing an infringement claim is a route to easy money, I would refrain from tarring all content creators with that same brush.

Since you discussed technological changes, it's only been relatively recently that small scale content creators have had inexpensive or free technologies at their disposal to track down instances where an infringement might have occurred.

Heck, the first time I was made aware of any significant infringement of one of my own shots - well, if I hadn't been told about it by a third party, it would have escaped my notice completely, as this was before the days of TinEye and other image searching engines.

These days, in the same number of mouse clicks it takes someone to grab one of my shots, I can also find out if that very thing has happened - and that's the position for a lot of creators out there. We're trying to stop the flood, doing our best to educate people that sharing our work with reckless abandon has real-world consequences for us and, when all else fails, using the law to level the playing field.

I'd like to think that no creator actively wants to litigate - and, as I said in another positing, I'd also like to think that VKT would not be complicit in allowing his work to spread, with the sole intention of threatening litigation. That would be plain wrong on so many levels and contra to the spirit (in my opinion) of protecting the value of one's work.

138
Hawaiian Letters & Lawsuits Forum / Re: Vincent K Tylor strikes again
« on: June 18, 2014, 08:06:38 AM »
The lawyer needs to ask about all these FREE VKT wallpaper websites?  How did those come about?  And WHY are they out there?  Are there prominent disclaimers?

This part bothers me the most; I can't conceive of any photographer - especially those that are protective of their work to the point of filing suit over alleged misappropriation - simply allowing the unchecked propagation of their images via "free wallpaper" sites.

It especially stretches credulity that, having gone to the trouble of timely registering their work, they're "happy" to see it shared around the internet via means which they realistically have no control over, save for filing a takedown notice or content removal request for sites that abide by such messages.

I'll say this much: if VKT, or any other photographer, were to be found to be deliberately placing their work on such sites in the hope that someone will eventually commit an infringement... they deserve to have the book thrown at them to the fullest extent that the law will permit.

At the very least, I'd expect their copyright registrations to be invalidated for any images they've claimed infringement of via such a vector, as well as any and all pending or in-progress cases thrown out. I would imagine that would also mean it would be "open season" on them via the civil courts (at least) for any past court actions or settlements, as their actions would equate to malicious prosecution and abuse of process.

139
Hawaiian Letters & Lawsuits Forum / Re: Vincent K Tylor strikes again
« on: June 17, 2014, 05:37:53 AM »
...after trying to extort her for $12,000, UP from the original $9,500, VKT filed a $150,000 lawsuit shortly thereafter...the MAXIMUM AMOUNT allowed for "WILLFUL" infringement!

I am thinking of a few selective adjectives here!

That's not unusual for a copyright lawsuit where a work has been timely registered; if you were filing any kind of suit where there's a cap on potential damages, your counsel would seek the maximum in the petition... though it will always be up to the courts to decide on the level of any damages awarded, which will be based on multiple factors which, naturally, will include the arguments put forth by counsel for both the plaintiff and defendant.

I completely understand that seeing a legal petition referencing $150,000 - or multiples of that figure - is going to make people's heads spin a bit... but, when a claim reaches that point, it's a binary choice: sue for actual damages (often difficult to establish) or statutory damages (let the courts decide)?

140
Getty Images Letter Forum / Re: Carolyn Wright and Others
« on: June 07, 2014, 05:38:26 AM »
No problem, Greg - it's just frustrating that both 17 USC 107 and/or 17 USC 512 are misunderstood quite frequently by people who think they offer carte blanché exceptions - and there seems to be an increase in deliberate abuse of these two sections of US Copyright Law by those who seek to explicitly generate revenue from the work of others (think buzzfeed etc.)

I do believe that the vast majority of people who commit an infringement simply had no clue that what they were doing, and didn't intend to cause harm.

Unfortunately, it's the few truly egregious cases that get the most publicity, which leads to further entrenched division of opinions between content creators and those who think that copyright laws are abused, and it winds up getting heated and emotional all around.

141
Getty Images Letter Forum / Re: Carolyn Wright and Others
« on: June 06, 2014, 01:02:15 PM »
Robert; nope - this is one of the biggest misconceptions surrounding 17 USC 107, because the phrase "news reporting" is used in the opening lines of the text of the exceptions.

The courts have held that the original intent was to be reporting on a photograph itself in a newsworthy manner. Here's an example of the differences.

Photographer Neil Leifer captured several incredibly iconic frames of Muhammed Ali towering over a prone Sonny Liston, which can be seen here http://neilleifer.com/portfolio/muhammad-ali-vs-sonny-liston-1965-world-heavyweight-title-2/?g=373907

Now Mr. Leifer has on several occasions donated prints of this image to be auctioned for various charitable organisations - and any newspaper, website, blog, or broadcast medium (in territories which allow fair use for news reporting purposes) would be able to include this photograph in their report about a copy being available at auction, or what it fetched at auction without license due paid to Mr. Leifer, and they would not be breaching Mr. Leifer's copyrights in doing so, as they were reporting news about a copy of the photograph itself.

The boot would be on a different foot if any reporting outlet simply used the same photograph in a general article about boxing, Muhammed Ali or Sonny Liston - even if the article was about the Ali vs. Liston fight, as they were not reporting on or offering opinion about the photograph itself. Mr. Leifer would be well within his rights to make an infringement claim if he wanted to, and would likely prevail.

142
Getty Images Letter Forum / Re: Carolyn Wright and Others
« on: June 06, 2014, 07:28:04 AM »
Just for fun, I did a copyright search on the photographer's name, and she has only one copyright - and it's 14 years old, and for a sculpture, not a photograph!

Did you consider that you didn't find a relevant record because the Copyright Office hasn't processed it yet? It can take a few months from filing an application to the certificate being granted - if you tack on the grace period that a claimant also has when considering filing (three months from date of first publication), then it could be six ~ eight months from publication before they receive a certificate.

I'm speaking from experience as I shot an event for a client in early March and, less than a few hours later, a different entity had pulled the leading shot "from a Google image search" (their claim) and used it to anchor their review of the same event.

My personal view was that this was so bloody blatant that I instructed my counsel to send a letter to them, which the third party received just days later. We didn't reference a copyright certificate in the letter as I didn't have one at that time - I filed my copyright registration application at month end, just over three weeks after shooting it.

I instructed my counsel not to follow up on that initial letter, despite many wild accusations and claims being thrown about by the third party. I'm waiting for my certificate to arrive in the mail (should be with me around month end) and, at that point, we'll send out fresh correspondence.

Of course the facts surrounding your case may well be very different, but just remember - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

143
I'd be willing to bet there are also trademark issues there.. one would think that "sports illustrated" may not be to happy with their logo appearing along with the images..but then again it is a "reporting" site, so maybe fair use comes into play. Either way it's important that folks that want to do this kind of site, do their homework first to avoid any of these possible issues. But most just have that "it's on the internet..free for all attitude"

Trademark would only come in to play if mizozo.com's postings were crafted in such a manner to imply either a connection to or endorsement by Sports Illustrated, being that a claim has to show Dilution by Blurring, Dilution by Tarnishment or both.

And yeah, I run into a lot of "it's online, so it's free" in people's arguments, as well as all sorts of people who seem to think the DMCA exempts them from wrongdoing, even when they've not got a designated agent and/or are outwith the US.

I had someone approach me last week that wants to build a site to sell "knock off" watches, handbags and the like..they said these things are all over ebay, why can't you do it for me..

There's a simple reply to that: just tell them that there are two reasons you don't want to - 18 USC §2319 and 15 USC §1125  ;)

144
the problem with Mizzo is they are actually hosting most of the images.. for example this page:

http://www.mizozo.com/entertainment/02/2014/20/the-incredibly-sexy-heidi-klum-stuns-in-sports-illustrated-swimsuit-50th-aniversary-issue.html is using an image from Sports Illustrated even including their watermark.. the image is not linked to as can be seen by the path:

http://www.mizozo.com/images/item_images/77000/76914_gallery.jpg

my guess it won't be long, before many other trolls start piling on. The site states that all content is uploaded by users, in which case they would be covered by dmca providing they have a registered agent..which i'm not so sure of.

Mizozo's problems seem to have started here (or thereabouts)

http://www.mizozo.org/2012/02/mizozo-received-and-responded-to-its.html

The problem they have is that they didn't meet the requirements of DMCA safe harbor protections until after the date they received the letter.

http://www.copyright.gov/onlinesp/agents/m/mizozo_llc.pdf

... so there's the possibility that they *could* be sued for any unlicensed images posted to mizozo.com prior to May 17 of 2012

145
http://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/LegalResources/Rules/civil/CivilProcedure.pdf

Looks like the plaintiff could avail themselves of several options here that, if the defendant did not respond to, would lead to a default judgement.

146
Robert,

Depending on the jurisdiction, service can be achieved and deemed valid by simple, unregistered mail (that's the short version); I'm in no way cognizant of how this would play out in all states, but a quick search shows the following as just one example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_of_process_in_Virginia#Effecting_service

EDIT: should have linked to this too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_of_process#Service_by_mail

147
Getty Images Letter Forum / Re: 4th Getty Letter
« on: April 09, 2014, 04:19:39 AM »
That is NOT a major reality check.  It is only one person's opinion and that person is not a "regular" fighter or opponent of Getty and their ilk.

... hence my prefacing that I was playing Devil's Advocate  ;)

Like I said: FotoQuote is very widely used software and provides third-party data without bias, especially if you want to answer the question as to what a fair rate for an image license might be. In a recent UK court case, FotoQuote was referenced by both the plaintiff and defendant in their arguments - you can read how that played out here

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWPCC/2013/26.html

Also, Robert brings up an important point.  Even if the price is "legitimate", it doesn't mean that any ordinary person would have ever bought or agreed to such outrageous pricing.

Again, you're mostly correct: in a free market economy, a prospective buyer does indeed have a choice when it comes to how much they want to pay for a given commodity in advance; value judgements are made based on a raft of considerations, with budget almost always being one of the core factors. Freedom of choice allows you to elect for an alternative, lower priced commodity - or perhaps pass entirely.

However, when it comes to the legal aspects of copyright infringement, we're no longer talking about one's opinion as to whether the fee is outrageous or not; instead it becomes a question of actual damages - and the plaintiff has to show that the sum they're asking for is reasonable and in-line with industry averages.

This leads me back to the Sheldon vs. Daybrook House case I referenced earlier; in the ruling, the judge was not concerned about how much the Daybrook House offered or wanted to pay - the judgement was rendered based on how much Sheldon could have legitimately licensed the image for to a genuine buyer.

Coming back to CaliBoy's issue: he's perfectly free to refuse to engage with Getty as they're not offering up the reasonable evidence that he's asked for. I personally detest their we'll-furnish-you-with-evidence-when-we-file-suit tactic as it implies that such evidence does not exist.

From my own perspective, making an offer to settle a civil claim for any matter is best done by presenting all the evidence and facts at the offer stage... otherwise, it's all noise and static.

148
Getty Images Letter Forum / Re: 4th Getty Letter
« on: April 09, 2014, 03:45:51 AM »
I also think, that what some may be overlooking, is not the high prices, but the fact that most mom and pops, bloggers etc..would not purchase these high priced images, add to that that there are most likely very similar images available for much less...at the end of the day the only folks using any of Getty's RM images are most likely large corporate accounts, and big media.

Robert, you're right on all counts: RM imagery exists to offer a measure of exclusivity to the image user; the amount of exclusivity is based on the fee paid and I have first-hand knowledge of instances where a licencee has paid a premium to get exclusive rights to use an image for a set period of time - usually "paparazzi" images or newsworthy shots, for what it's worth.

149
Getty Images Letter Forum / Re: Here's my letter and contribution
« on: April 08, 2014, 05:20:26 PM »
Greg's advice is solid: anyone who passes a "debt" which is based on a civil claim to a collections agency will eventually rue the day they did so pretty much regardless of jurisdiction - most countries have laws on the books against such practices.

150
Getty Images Letter Forum / Re: 4th Getty Letter
« on: April 08, 2014, 05:16:18 PM »
Just playing Devil's Advocate here for a moment; I ran some numbers using http://www.cradocfotosoftware.com/fotoQuote-Pro/ and it returned a one-month license of $820 using the following criteria

Country: United States
Corporate Use
Web Only
Promotional (national market)
Up to full screen
Up to 1 month

Now, I'm just running numbers based on guesswork as to the image they claim you used. FotoQuote Pro is used by so many photographers worldwide it's practically a de-facto standard.

As to the merits of Getty's claim; you're perfectly within your rights to request proof that the image was either produced by one of their staff photographers and thus is their own copyright, or that they have the right to pursue the claim on behalf of the photographer who did and, until such time, you're within your rights to refuse to engage with them any further.

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