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Messages - DavidVGoliath

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196
DavidV, most of us on this forum agree with you in principle.  Where we disagree is where the "rubber meets the road".  The theory of what Getty does is fine.  That is why they have gotten away with it as long as they have.  The practice, on the other hand, clearly reveals their motives, and is the single largest reason this forum exists.

I also find it troubling at best that Getty appear to be attempting to collect on infringements of images for which they might not actually hold the copyrights - or which they've failed to register in a timely or proper manner.

Being a photographer whom diligently polices my work, I'm sure that certain folk will disagree with some of my opinions but, rest assured, I certainly won't support any abuses of process or deception by Getty - or any other business - that operates without a legitimate basis to do so.

197
As for making my own images and then registering each image with the copyright office for $40 a pop or whatever it costs these days, that's something I wouldn't do for any image less valuable than a picture of the Pope having sex with the Queen of England on a unicycle.

You can bulk register your images, once every three months, for published works. Example: you shoot photos for your website and publish them on January 1st. You slowly add more of your own images to your site over the course of the next three months.

If you keep a folder on your desktop titled "Q1 registration" where you've saved copies of all the shots you took and published between January 1st - March 31st, you can then go to the eCo service on March 31st and file an online registration of all these shots for a one-time fee of $35.00.

You simply repeat the process next quarter etc. etc. ad infinium.

If you're a photographer with sole access to shooting celebs like Brad and Angelina on red carpets, as you imply in a message above, you're making major bucks with national and world-wide publications. And if that's the case, why on earth are you spending valuable time scolding and negotiating with mom and pop website owners who have most likely used an image of yours without even thinking about copyright?

Oh, you think editorial photographers are making major bucks? Perhaps some paid staff photographers or a select few elite freelancers are, but the rest of us find it a struggle to make a meaningful income. Although agencies might offer royalty splits of between 20% to 60% in favour of the photographer, actual image license fees have been driven down considerably over the last 20 years in lieu of big clients getting subscription access to any given agencies archives.

Here's an example. Time Warner might have an account with Associated Press whereby they pay a flat fee which will allow them to use up to 25,000 pictures/month across all their outlets - this means print, online, TV - as long as it's editorial. This level of access might cost them $10,000/month, meaning the actual per image license is $0.40.

As a contributing photographer, you might get as little as $0.08 as your share of that image use. Perhaps you'll get $0.26 if you've got a better royalty share contract.

Of course the answer is to cut out the middleman and license your works straight to clients - which is largely what I do; I still contribute to agencies because shooting for them often means I get access to events which I simply wouldn't get otherwise and, once at an event, I can network and make contacts which may yield directly commissioned work down the road.

Also, not every agency client is a subscription client so - on the odd occasion - the royalty incomes can be pretty good. The more you shoot, the more you earn.

I can understand stomping on websites or publications that arrogantly steal images for profit, but I just don't get spending time tracking down and trying to negotiate settlements on the small infringements in a digital age with an internet that hosted more than 40,000,000,000 clear back in 2008. The only way that makes any sense is if the effort from doing that earns more money than the actual work of making images and licensing them.

Here's the point: copyright infringements affect my bottom line. Period. I make every attempt to turn an infringer into a correct licensor of my works so long as doing so doesn't breach my contracts with my clients.

Also, with legislation being proposed in both the EU and US to tackle the issue of "orphan" works, it is absolutely in my business interests to ensure that infringements of my work are found promptly and either replaced with correctly licensed works or deleted.

Continuing that line of thought, I'd still like to know what percentage of your time you spend hounding copyright violators and negotiating settlements. Ditto for what percentage of your income comes from these settlements? You've lamented in several threads and messages about not having as much time as you'd like to create images -- that suggests to me that you're making good money in the settlement demand game and prefer the rewards of winning that game to the rewards of creative work itself.

If I'm not shooting, taking care of administrative tasks, or busy with my domestic and family responsibilities, then you can be sure that my 9-5 hours are spent addressing infringements.

Unlike the alleged practices of Getty, I review infringements on a case-by-case basis and accrue as much information as possible before deciding on a course of action. Except for particularly egregious infringements such as those that are commercial or editorial in nature, I contact the infringers directly and explain why I'm reaching out to them and what my expectations are by way of resolving the matter.

The blatant infringements by commercial entities or those whom are gainfully using my work (e.g. entities whom could license my shots but have chosen not to and/or should be knowledgeable about copyrights) get turned over to my attorneys instead.

As for the settlements? From infringers whom I've contacted directly, it's usually for the fee that the image would have been licensed for had they asked in advance. In the event that the matters get referred for legal actions, the settlements wind up being for considerably more.

To date, about 80% of my settlements have been the former and, in a few of those instances, infringers were converted to clients. Even in one of the instances that my attorneys handled for me, a settlement was negotiated whereby the outlet became a client too.

To put in simply: I'll happily work with people to reach a mutually beneficial outcome. I don't bear anyone any ill will when I find they've infringed on my work as they largely aren't aware that they've broken any laws - I make them aware that I'm simply protecting my business interests and hope that the issue can be resolved without it getting messy (i.e. legal)

To save you some typing, please spare me any self-serving remarks about it being a sacred duty of photographers to educate mom and pop copyright illiterates by making them pay money for what are in most instances most likely innocent and de minimis infringements.

Education is a duty, and not just by photographers. There seems to be a very vocal "free ride" movement online and there's also far too much misinformation going around about the legalities of what people can and can't do - an issue which is exacerbated by the ability for people to have a measure of anonymity associated with their actions.

By our very nature, creatives of all type want to share our work with as wide an audience as possible, but we also expect that we can be fairly compensated for our efforts and that people will respect our rights.

Copyright laws exist so that we can enjoy a measure of protection from those whom would otherwise simply appropriate our works, thus allowing us to earn a living and contribute our ideas and visions to society at large.

If you have an issue over the penalties for infringements, that's a whole other debate.

DvsG, I hate to be a cynic but a long life has taught me that most everything these days boils down to money for far too many people in this world.

Everything boils down to money, period. Like most people on this planet, I have financial obligations and I choose to fulfil them by making a career out of what I'm good at: photography. I have numerous other skills that I could draw on for employment, but this is my passion and what I'm best at.

198
However, that is not really the issue with Getty on this forum. The issue is Getty are putting stock images into their rights managed section and then expecting an innocent infringer to pay more than the image is actually worth by pressuring them with fear of litigation.

Whether an image (or collection) exists as either Rights Managed, Royalty Free - whilst subject to the control of an agency - is largely down to the photographer per the contract they agreed with the agency at the time of joining.

Secondly, when it comes to the value of an image, you might as well ask how long is a piece of string. The rightsholder sets the fees and terms as they see fit; if someone feels that the fee for an image is excessive, then they're certainly free to shop around for an alternative elsewhere.

My personal belief is that you don't get the luxury of arguing over the fee after you've used an image - no matter if a lower priced, similar alternative exists. It's akin to sitting down in a restaurant, ordering without looking at the menu, eating the meal and then attempting to haggle over the bill when it turns out to be way more than you thought it would - all because similar outlets on the other side of town charge far less.

(Yes, it's not a perfect analogy, but you get the point)

An image of 3 people smiling around a business meeting table is not worth £500 to a small business for 3 months use on a secondary page of a website. Not even close, and in most instances the company in question hasn't sourced the images on their website. They have trusted their web designer to do it.

Whilst I agree that most small businesses would not license a single photograph for a three figure sum (especially where the subject matter of the photograph might be generic, easily replicated or have similar alternatives available elsewhere for a lesser fee.) the company should have gotten a contract with the web design firm whereby they would be indemnified and held harmless for any legal claims arising from the acceptance of the work done by the design firm for them... absent such contractual protections, the company would be exposed to the risks and liabilities that operating solely on a trust basis can bring to their door.

199
1) How can it be ok to sub-licence for profit a photo you don't own any rights to?

Belive me, rightsholders in the UK are not okay with this and are set to fight the bill tooth and nail to prevent such things from happening. It seems that, by wording the bill as they did, the Intellectual Property Office is looking out for the interests of certain entities whom would grossly benefit from being able to do so.

2) A lot of images on the internet are ones uploaded by people for social purposes. How is it ok to be allowed to use those images for profit and why should everybody have to register images they are not selling for profit just to ensure some multi-national doesn't use it.

This is one of the key concerns that rightsholders have. Social Media sites such as Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and so on - which allow the sharing of copyright material - largely remove the embedded EXIF and IPTC data that these files might contain, making it considerably more difficult to trace a rightsholder to obtain the permissions to use their work in a commercial manner.

Now, rightsholders whom know how to protect their works from such abuses might not be as affected by the "hoovering up" of creative works as Joe Average will be. If the flaws in the bill aren't addressed, then it will be a bad day for everyone.

Would any of us be ok with Getty sub-licencing our images for profit?

Emphatically "No", but I'd be more concerned about companies such as Google, Facebook and other large scale media aggregators - not to mention businesses whom would set up shop to explicitly take advantage of the flaws in the legislation.

Getty are actually one of the entities whom are challenging this legislation; they're working in concert with several other concerned parties - there are several options open to them so it remains to be seen just what will happen.

200
As for hiring a photographer, it's sad to say, but there are also photographers licensing and selling images that they didn't shoot and don't own the rights to.


I've seen some exceptionally rare instances of photographers passing off the work of others as their own... in the nine years I've been engaged in professional photography, I've not heard of a single instance of an individual actually attempting to license an image which they did not have the rights to.

That said, I've had one infringer claim that they had licensed one of my photographs from the owners of a site where they found one of my works. When I challenged them to provide evidence to back up this claim, they had none. I also put my attorney on to the site that they referenced. Each separate party settled in short order.

During these times of digital confusion and fraud it seems the only safe way left is to shoot all your own images... and even then you may get a letter from Getty or a copyright troll or collection agent like Timothy B. McCormack if PicScout IDs your image as being too similar to some generic image in their catalog of millions of images.

Services such as PicScout, DigiMarc and others are highly unlikely to mis-identify a shot - though I'll concede it's not impossible for that to happen. I once had to give some forensic level information to my Canadian attorneys on how I could be absolutely sure that a photograph I found on being used online was my own work - I elected to use an example where I shot literally elbow to elbow with a Getty staff photographer whereby we wound up with almost identical frames.

Over the course of a few paragraphs, I was able to detail the subtle differences in perspective and other visual and technical information that would leave no doubts as to which photograph I had created.

This aside, the solution in shooting one's own work for a site is the best one: just register it with the US Copyright Office and ensure that all the EXIF data is in your file and that you add IPTC metadata to it.

201
I came across this article today:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/29/err_act_landgrab/

It's obvious from the article the author is a photographer and doesn't much like the plan. But I say, if photographers think enough of their images they should take a moment to register them with a site such as what is being planned. And meanwhile anyone that posts these images without at least attempting a search, should get penalized.

I personally think a plan like what is being proposed in England CAN be made to work. Just wonder what other people think.

That article on The Register outlines an absolute worse case scenario if the Enterprise & Regulatory Reform bill comes into force without some of the particularly egregious holes in the bill being addressed.

A more balanced view of the bill can be viewed at this link

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/03/instagram_act_explained/

202
What I'd say to you is that maybe it's about time this industry moved into the 21st Century in the same way that iTunes has revolutionised music downloads.

Most image agencies - including Getty - are already at the iTunes Point when it comes to subscription clients... on the editorial side of the business anyways; I've seen Getty license photographs for as little as $1.00, meaning the photographer got between $0.35 ~ $0.10 as their share.

Getty et al still act like the purveyors of some sacred stone and instead of embracing the new digital world, they fight against it.  The fact that they cling to outdated models does nothing to benefit honest people like yourself...as can be seen in this forum's post

Because of the way in which copyright protects the creators / owners of a work, they are protecting a valuable asset... the fact that similar assets might be available for lower fees and/or free elsewhere doesn't mean they have to change their position.

The choice rests with the consumer: if someone needs generic stock images for their site, why not go to a microstock agency or have a look for works that are available under creative commons licensing?

My suggestion would be to collaborate with other photographers and create your own website(s).  You not only free yourself of other companies' commissions, but have more control over your output, plus you will find that 'small people' like me would welcome your work and gladly pay for it, because you're one of us.  To create a niche, and also profit for yourself, you make sure that your content is always fresh, so that you can accept that after a few months your images will be copied to the hilt, but people will pay for something that no one else has.

Photographer collectives (such as you outline above) certainly exist already - the one that springs immediately to mind is the award-winning, invitation only http://www.viiphoto.com/; another small collective whom I know about is http://www.hoganphotos.com/ Both of these agencies have specific niche markets which they serve. I'm not sure if anything similar exists for the stock photography sector - I don't shoot stock, so I wouldn't know.

As for my own site, yes: I have a site powered by PhotoShelter for just this purpose and it allows me to showcase my work, license directly from the site (just 9% going to PhotoShelter) and also acts as an image delivery mechanism for select clients.

Getty can exist in their world promoting exclusive images, but how many images actually fall into that category?

Again, I can't speak for stock images, but I've shot many an event for Getty where I've been the sole person with "inside" access on the red carpet, at parties, closed door functions and so on. You can't get much more exclusive than that.

The majority of us want high quality images that are representative of our brands and if the cost is reasonable, payment is not an issue.  If you create strategic partnerships with marketing companies (large and small) you can not only secure good licensing terms, but bespoke work as well.

The tricky point in the above is "if the cost is reasonable"; if someone really needs those high-quality images which exactly fit their brand identity, then the best thing they can do is commission a photographer to shoot for them, and that normally comes at significant cost... well, more than a good enough stock image might cost to license.

Great content does float to the surface, but there are ways to see good, honest people profit from their work in a structure other than the one we currently have.  This is an opportunity and I do sincerely hope you take it.

Yes, cream rises to the top and I firmly believe that my own work is already up there - at least based on how often my shots get ripped off and used by all and sundry, ha!

All joking aside, I have carved out my niche and work diligently to expand my reach; it's a tough slog as this means that the bulk of my time is spend doing a slew of tasks other than actually taking pictures.

By contrast, working with/for an agency frees photographers to concentrate on shooting... so the agency business model isn't going to die off anytime soon.

203
The fact that "hotlinking" is not infringement lies in "case law", and not actual "copyright law".
Therefore, I think that Getty is entitled their "opinion", even if we disagree with it.

Even the Electronic Frontier Foundation admit "The legal status of inlining images without permission has not been settled" (http://www.chillingeffects.org/linking/faq.cgi#QID230)

This is because 17 USC § 106 states the following

"in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly" (emphasis mine)

Consider the following: Entity A purchases a license to use a photograph or graphic on their website. Entity B comes along and 'hotlinks' to the photograph that Entity A have legitimately licensed.

To any layman, the formatting and display of Entity B's site makes it look as if they too are using a legitimately licensed image. Only by inspecting the code of the site would anyone know that the image/graphic is not hosted on their servers.

Entity B, via their actions, has bypassed the legitimate licensing market for the original photograph/graphic and - on these actions - a rightsholder would be pretty much entitled to the opinion that their copyrights have been infringed (with any fair use claim probably sailing out the window too)

If the actions of Entity B were entirely legal per copyright legislation and case precedents, why would anyone ever want to legitimately license an image?

Oh and yes, I'm well aware of the 9th Circuit's opinion in Perfect 10 vs. Amazon... but that dealt with thumbnail-sized images. What I'm talking about here is an attempt at circumvention of copyrights in an effort to use full-sized images on websites without paying for them.

It appears that "hotlinking" to images doesn't (or hasn't) happened on a sufficiently large enough scale from any single infringer to make the matter viable for pursuit through the courts to the appropriate level to once and for all get a definitive answer.

204
However, I have to say the legislation seems ridiculous. Using orphan works I might be able to make a case for, but allowing them to be sold for profit wholesale is clearly wrong. They haven't even sorted out a proper copyright registration database.

You're not wrong there; the portion of the ERRB that deals with copyright looks to absolutely fly in the face of the Berne Convention - something which could lead to some very nasty court actions being brought against UK based users of "orphan" works created by foreign rightsholders.

Hopefully common sense will prevail as, if the ERRB becomes fully ratified, there are many rightsholders poised to mount a campaign for a judicial review of this piece of nonsense.

My own €0.02 says that someone needs to investigate why Ed Quilty tacked the issue of so-called oprhan works onto a bill which has almost nothing to do with copyrights. Whose pocket is he in?

/end rant

205
One difference between you an me is my blog is not a business. It's a hobby blog.  So $140 a year would just be spending $140 a year for... what? The right to later hire a lawyer, who might get what? $200 for me? It's remotely possible that if I got a very, very good lawyer, he might be able to persuade a judge that the context of the copying means large punitive damages should be awarded-- but I think a good lawyer would tell me even he might not be able to get that. Generally speaking, I would probably have to hire the lawyer to get him to tell me his opinion on that. Given that the lawyer would need to spend time examining the facts of the case (and he has to understand those facts-- which involve crawlers etc.), it would probably cost me another $500 minimum to get the lawyer to figure out if he thought there was any chance of winning anything.

Whilst I wholly understand and respect your position, allow me to playing Devil's Advocate here: that $140/year could protect you from appropriation of your work by Big Media - trust me, it happens.

There are guides out there as to how much you should be compensated for use of your work (http://www.writersmarket.com/assets/pdf/How_Much_Should_I_Charge.pdf is an excellent primer) so you'd have a grasp of fair market values for actual damages.

Of course, Big Media absolutely should know better than to rip off a casual blogger, so the sledgehammer of statutory damages is a useful one to have in your negotiations toolbox.

I'd love to avoid all cynicism and say that this will never happen to you but, if you truly value your content and work - no matter that you call yourself a hobby blogger - then it's something worth considering.

From a personal standpoint, I never thought I'd see some of my own works being appropriated by the likes of Fox, MSN, Yahoo and others (hence my screen name here ;) )

Just my €0.02

206
Getty Images Letter Forum / Re: Recieved Letter from getty
« on: April 29, 2013, 11:53:02 AM »
Just to play devils advocate:  You aren't completely safe buying images from anyone.  If you read the contracts on those sites you have to agree to in order to purchase, I think you'll find that they don't take any responsibility for any copyright violation issues that might arise.  What's to keep a copyright troll from seeding on these sites?  What's to keep a thief from selling someone elses images on these sites?  Is anyone in the entire process verifying ownership? Is it feasible or even possible to verify ownership?  Too many questions for me.

Welcome to some of the problems faced by rightsholders trying to do online business. I've had knock-down, drag-out fights with some people whom have laid (false) claim to ownership of my photographs. It can rapidly get very ugly. I even came across one instance whereby a particular jackass tried to offer my work under a creative commons license using their own name etc.

Fortunately, I shoot RAW files which I convert to JPGs for clients, so indisputable proof of ownership will never be an issuel; Simply put, no-one apart from me has access to my original files.

207
Quote from: lucia
That said: the legal route is not palatable to me. My stuff is a blog. I'm not going to spend the money on registering at the copyright office and so on. (Though I have to tell you, I was tempted when I recently saw that Newsblur added text scraping.  Arghhhhh!!!!)

I agree that the legal route is not a pleasant thought; your mind may be changed for you if and when your work gets appropriated on a massive scale without proper attribution or payment to you - exponentially so if the ones doing the appropriation are large entities whom damn well should know better.

With that in mind, paying a $35 fee every quarter to the US Copyright Office might be a small price to pay so that you can better enforce your rights. Just my €0.02 worth!

208
Getty continues to stretch the envelope of what constitutes "use" of an image. Having an image displayed through an RSS feed is not having an image on your server nor is it you "using " the image at all. Don't engage them too much, the letter seems fine. Also you should register a DMCA agent for future issues

Oscar, as I understand it, there are no solid case precedents involving copyright material obtained via RSS feeds (or site scripts that 'scrape' such feeds).

Being that a good majority of the the information offered up on many RSS feeds is intended for private personal use only (subject to site T&C's), my own point of view is that re-publishing any information pulled from a feed on one's own site would - in a broad sense - constitute a copyright infringement.

The tricky part stems from 17 USC §106 because the copyright holder is the one whom defines how, when or where their work is "published" (unfortunately, a still slightly grey area in the internet age).

Consider: if I grant USA Today a license to use one of my photographs in a story on their website - which will also be on their RSS feed - that's the total extent of my license. I certainly haven't granted other wannabe news sites the right to ride on USA Today's coat-tails, whereby they might use scripts or code to pull the story and photograph straight from the RSS feed and re-publish it verbatim on their own domains.

In such instances, sometimes they hotlink to the photographs, sometimes they pull in the images for direct hosting (often stripping metadata and changing filenames as they go). Either way, in my eyes, it's an abuse at the very least.

209
Quote from: Couch_Potato
http://prophotocoalition.com/tdonaldsonppc/story/getty_really_makes_me_mad/

Getty absolutely can move images between licences although there are some terms for them to do it.

I'd heard about this possible change in the terms two years ago; as I'd only ever supplied editorial content (which is RM by default) the proposed changes made no difference to me. I'm going to check if these proposals were every enacted - might be some time before I can dig up the info and report back.

Quote from: Couch_Potato
I do feel a little for photographers because I also work in an industry where there is currently a big focus on price and there is a worry of a race to the bottom. However, you have to see where you add value and price accordingly. Taking yet more pictures of dudes in suits shaking hands and thinking they are worth hundreds of pounds to licence is going to fail as a business model.

You're not kidding. Since cameras went digital, it's become easier for people to create their own photographs and offer them up for use (paid or otherwise). Great content will always rise to the top, but the sea of mediocrity keeps on expanding... and there's always an army of fresh-faced hopeful new shooters to replace those whom bow out when they realise making a living isn't as easy as they'd hoped it would be.

210
Legal Controversies Forum / Re: A message from the little guy
« on: April 29, 2013, 07:43:43 AM »
Quote from: Jerry Witt
I do wonder how you deal with smaller mom-an-pop commercial blogging sites that have mistakenly infringed on your copyrighted work.

I can count on one hand how many times it's been a "mom & pop" mistake; the lion's share of 'small' sites that take my shots are wannabe news sites - either extremely enthusiastic 'fans' of the subject matter I shoot whom pull photographs and news stories from multiple sources and then re-hash them as their own or (more seriously) the part-time "journalists" whom have day jobs but aspire to be in the big leagues... often times they have unpaid contributors posting stories on their sites too, but there's always a concerted drive to pull in revenue of some sort via adverts or similar.


Quote from: Jerry Witt
Maybe they found an image on a third party site or in an rss feed and used in in a blog post on a craft site. In that case, you hold the cards.

RSS feeds are a huge problem in terms of educating people on legitimacy of use. It's an uphill struggle as there's nary any case precedents to cite.

Quote from: Jerry Witt
They could argue "innocent infringement" because they thought it was freely available. But they posted your art on their site without paying and without attribution. Maybe they point to images on the microstock sites that sell for $1 to $50. What do you say to them? What would you deem to be fair in this circumstance?

In an ideal world, I could simply convert infringers into licensees instead. The trick is that most of the time my images are used, they're still under limited exclusive license to paying clients ... so I couldn't license those pictures to the infringer even if I'd wanted to.

This leaves only one option open: they have to remove the image, but pay the going rate for the time it was in use (which is an 'up to one month' license. I don't license by the day/week/pro-rated)

Sadly even the offer of such a low, reasonable settlement gets spat back in my face more often than not, leaving me no choice but to escalate the matter.

Quote from: Jerry Witt
By the way, we have had photographers on here in the past and most have moved on. Many of them were represented by the stock photo agencies. It became clear that the difference in opinion was too vast to ever come to a consensus of how copyright claims and proof of infringement should be presented.

I guess most previous photographers may have found this forum after being infringed upon for the first time. It's a very emotive issue for both parties: at best, the photographer feels that they've been wronged, whilst the person whom used their work might not have known what they'd done would have any consequence, let alone upset someone.

Quote from: Jerry Witt
It's interesting that so many of us here on ELI produce our own intellectual property but also are appalled at the scam the large stock agencies are running.

I hear you. There needs to be a serious shift in education and attitudes all around. We all need copyrights as the protections they offer allow creators the freedom to express themselves without the risk of brazen exploitation. Abuse of the system on either side of the fence will benefit nobody in the long run.

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