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Messages - Oscar Michelen

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391
Getty Images Letter Forum / Re: Questions about my upcoming battle
« on: June 17, 2012, 11:56:02 AM »
I don't think its worth getting over entangled in this.  The image has been taken down and a stern letter from you not to contact your employer should be enough to end further communication from Getty to them. It is a bit disturbing that Getty went to an unrelated third party without any proof of a connection between the third party and the alleged infringement. I don't think its part of a new corporate strategy, but probably an overzealous employee thinking they were being thorough in finding an address to send the letters to. That being said, Getty should be alerted that it was inappropriate. 

392
Getty Images Letter Forum / Re: Getty From Start To Finish
« on: June 10, 2012, 08:54:53 PM »
I agree with  Matt, you need to take the time to educate yourself with all the information available on these forums (in various forms).

393
Well stated bruce!

394
Glen: Here's something you apparently have not had for awhile, some sound, free legal advice:

#1 - Have you ever seen an attorney letter that you felt was reasonable and appropriate?  Can you provide a copy and who was the attorney?

I deal with C &D letters all the time, both in issuing them on behalf of clients and in responding to them on behalf of clients. Many are forceful and direct but do not go over the top into the land of bullying and extortion. The proper balance is not that hard to achieve. Just don't overstate your case.  For example,  I only use the word "theft" when I have proof that the target of the letter "intentionally took something" that belonged to my client. That's what "willful" means by the way - they meant to do it or acted so recklessly that they show they don't care about whether someone owned the property or not. It's a fairly clear standard.     

#2 - Are there any attorney letters that don't get posted on the ELI website because you "approved" of them?
To my knowledge, Matt publishes whatever letters he receives and which the recipient has allowed him to publish. We want to inform on this site - its not an attack site. All over the place we repeatedly state that we do not condone copyright infringement.  We advise everyone to take the images down immediately once they receive a letter. I suspect we would give a lot of space to praising someone who is doing it fairly and in a balanced fashion. But for some reason, the digital image industry, following Getty's lead, insists on making claims that are not applicable and asking for amounts of money that are legally insupportable. I am certain that the slightly softer tone of the more recent Getty and Masterfile letters is from the effect of the folks who contribute regularly to this site. 

#3 - Under what circumstances do you feel an attorney should be used to settle a copyright claim for a photograph?
For me that answer is simple - EVERY TIME! I mean I have three kids to put through college for crying out loud.  But the real answer to this question is the same for IP as it is for any other form of claim.  For minor matters (and I think the alleged infringement of a few digital images is a minor matter in most cases) the IP holder should ask his lawyer for a form letter they can disseminate and see if that gets the person to C & D and settle.   Some matters are major and require a thoughtful letter from a lawyer that (1) accurately and efficiently sets forth the relevant facts and law (2) will not embarrass the lawyer or the client if litigation becomes necessary and (3) does not violate any laws or ethical rules. But Glen, this is not hard stuff really.  I mean I teach my first year law students how to craft a C& D letter and the chapter on it in the text we use is barely 5 pages long (the shortest in the book), if they can get it, practicing lawyers should be able to get it.   And while we are on the topic of younger practicing lawyers, I disagree with your comment about seasoned lawyers "drifting away from the law." Experienced lawyers know that the law is not always applied exactly as written; that courts have a wide range of latitude in most cases and that maximum penalties are reserved for "maximum cases." Experienced lawyers have perspective and can more readily tell which battles are worth fighting and how best to fight them. Experienced lawyers (hopefully) have enough confidence and business to look a client in the eye and say "That's not right, I won't do that. And if you want a lawyer to do that, you are going to have to find another lawyer."  I have a conversation like that fairly regularly with clients and prospective clients. I have every right NOT to take a case if I disagree with a client's requests or demands. Clients come to me for advice on how best to handle a situation and my reputation helps get them fast and fair results. When we say that a lawyer "represents"a client that's what we mean - we stand in their place and the client and its case take on the lawyer's characteristics. As much as the young lawyers you have employed have caused some harm to their own reputations by their overreaching conduct, they have also harmed HAN's reputation. While Getty can take the hit because of their market share, can HAN continue to be berated all over the internet because of the methods you  and your lawyers employ? 

#4 - Do you make any distinction between a person downloading a song for personal use or a business using an image to make profits?
OF COURSE! Who doesn't know that a song is copyrighted? Whether its for personal or commercial use everyone knows that music is copyrighted. Conversely, who would believe that a thumbnail image that pops up on an internet search on a site that is screaming FREE IMAGES - FREE WALLPAPER is copyright protected? Also, you can search the copyright office for a film title or a song title and you will likely find it. These digital images are filed (when they are filed) en masse normally in digital databases that are not searchable by description. You type in "Palm Tree on Hawaiian Beach" and you will not necessarily find Mr. Tylor's images.
   
#5 - Do you have any suggestions on how "for profit" use can be compensated after the image is already being used if you disapprove of the current law and method?
I do not disapprove of the current law (except that I feel the US should follow the UK method and allow for no damages if the infringer C &D and can prove he did not willfully take someone's IP.)  See above for the answer to the balance of your question.

#6 - I have heard you mention $200 for innocent infringement claims as a settlement amount.  If a specific photographer agreed to only ask for this amount in the recovery, would you support that?

Yes. Provided the image was registered, otherwise they should be required to pay only the fair market value for the use they made of the image. That does not necessarily mean the high license fees that Fotoquote or Getty  or Masterfile of HAN employs.  But what can the image be replaced for on the open market. 

#7 - If you could change one small thing that about how agencies collect money retroactively for commercial use, what would it be?
See above but especially stop threatening people with the maximum in statutory damages (you know you will never get it) and criminal penalties (you know its not applicable at all). I don't doubt that its a successful method but it's just plain wrong.  Anyone can spend about an hour or two perusing this site and realize what's right and wrong with the digital image industry and what steps can be taken to address it.  That is , if they are truly interested.

#8 - Do you know of any agency, photographer, or author who is using a recovery method that you felt was acceptable and what was it?

Nope, we are all still waiting for Prince Charming.

Here endeth the lesson.


395
Glen: I will answer your questions from my perspective later this evening.

396
Getty Images Letter Forum / Re: A win for the bad guys
« on: May 30, 2012, 09:06:01 AM »
Great post.  I have recently been retained on one of those massive adult film cases in Florida and I think it may be time to address that topic fully in our forum.

397
Maybe we should ask Mr. Carner to address your question about all those VT images?

398
Carolyn's expanding legal staff is further proof of the money generated by these extortion letters. She went form being a sole practitioner to having a full staff of lawyers sending these letters out for her clients. 

399
I think it is clear that MF is responding to our position over the years and is filing case (even for one image) to prove a point.  A company of that size takes a global approach to their litigation; we may lose money on this suit over one image, but we more than make up for it with the multiple image cases and with the  increase in settlements we will get when people see that we do sue over one image. Also, since almost all federal settlements in IP cases are kept confidential by the parties, we will never know if MF accepted $300 or $3,000 or $30,000 to settle. 

400
The Stanford guide was referring to a single case where a search engine pulled up small thumbnails of images (like google images doe snow) when folks put in a search request. Because that was not a commercial use and was leading folks to where those images could be found, the search engine was found to be making a fair use of the image. Many cases have held that promoting yourself in anyway is pretty much a commercial use even if you don't make money on it. So I would not count on that defense in your case.   

401
To all those who complain that Googling their names now pulls up ELI on the first page (and sometimes as the first response) I remind you that this site will also praise and laud those who behave and litigate responsibly. We're just waiting for that to happen. Soon, we hope.     

402
Well done buddhapi! Didn't meant to give your props to SG!

403
If you take out the extortionate amount of money they are asking for as damages for a single image ($7,500) and reduce it by 90% ($750) the IMUA letter becomes a valid enforcement tool as opposed to an "extortion letter." 

404
Well, I have to say that I am pleasantly surprised to see anyone for HAN or CSI come forward to get into the debate. Along with Matthew Chan, I ask all our posters and contributors to keep the dialog respectful and on a high level. It is important that all stock photo agencies recognize that ELI is not supporting copyright infringement in any way shape or form. We simply feel its wrong to use threatening letters to force people into paying settlement amounts far in excess of what the infringement is worth - particularly when those letters make claims of criminal penalties and excessive fines that would never apply to the misuse of a single thumbnail image. Our second biggest gripe is the failure of these stock photo agencies to realize that the vast majority of website owners who receive these letters did not choose their own images and relied upon a third party to do so. They are normally  shocked and upset about it and it has been my experience never hesitate in taking the images off once they learn of the infringement claim. Yet, this conduct is never given any credit and the settlement demands and flurry of letters continues on; this despite the Copyright Act's protection for innocent infringers.   

With respect to HAN and CSI Glenn, as you likely know, I have been able to reach an amicable settlement several times with your respective lawyer(s) when a calm, rational, law-based discussion is had between us. For example, despite the sometimes rancorous flak that Peter Holt received on here a little while ago, recently he and I were able to quickly resolve a claim he was handling for HAN to everyone's mutual satisfaction. So it makes me a bit angry when I see that despite these positive interactions., HAN and CSI continue to pound people with the same exorbitant, threatening demands. You know what these images are worth and the various defenses to serious damages that can be raised yet you continue on the same path. 

Specifically to discuss HAN, though I realize your hands may be tied there due to the on-going  Aloha Plastic Surgery case, HAN or anyone affiliated with HAN will never be completely trusted until this issue of "seeding" free wallpaper and free images sites is explained, resolved or proven wrong. There are three possibilities:

(1) The conspiracy theorists are correct and Vincent Tylor and HAN (or others acting on their behalf) have intentionally placed their images on so many "free" sites that you can still find them 15 pages deep into a Google search.  If this is ever proven to be true, then everyone affiliated with HAN should be investigated and criminal penalties for fraud and larceny may be applicable. Since I tend to be more of a "the glass is half full" kind of guy, I will go on assuming that this is not the case;

(2) HAN had nothing to do with their images being released all over the place for free and is mad as hell that this mass infringement is going on and is taking no prisoners in its attempt to stop this proliferation of piracy. That is what the community would expect for a company that places such a high value on its images that it threatens people with jail time in its demand letters. We haven't seen that kind of response, which lends credence to theory (1) above and theory (3) which  follows;

(3) HAN had nothing to do with their images being released all over the place for free but is letting it go for now because it is generating a great deal of money for the infringement side of the business. I think this is the most plausible scenario. But if HAN and/or CSI were able to resolve this issue once and for all, I think it will go a long way to achieving what you want - people respecting Mr. Tylor's work and paying the appropriate license fee for its use.                             

I could go on about other issues, but this as good a place to start the dialogue as any. Thank you once again for joining us in this discussion and I look forward to a healthy, substantive dialogue. 

405
Here's an update on the Car Freshener v. Getty lawsuit. Getty's initial motion to dismiss was denied in 2011. Car Freshener's lawyers have written the court complaining that Getty has refuse to provide initial discovery that would let them know if they have the right entities or if others have to be brought in. They also allege that Getty has been difficult in revealing the exact relationship they have with their photographers. They are also objecting to certain documents they want that Getty wants to label confidential. The court has authorized them to file a motion if they cannot work these issues out with Getty. Getty responded to that filing by of course denying they were being difficult and stating that CF's lawyers are asking for  burdensome information which they cannot retrieve (like they want every image that has the tree, a portion of the tree, an obscured view of the tree, etc etc) They said they are willing to continue to try and resolve these issues with CF's lawyers. They are also fighting over where to take the deposition of Getty personnel.  Getty wants it done in Seattle and the plaintiffs want it done in  NY.  Both sides agreed that having a settlement conference in front of a federal magistrate would be helpful.  One of the sticking points it appears in the settlement talks is that Getty wants to be able to continue to sell the images. The terms of this proposed on-going business agreement appear to be what's holding up the settlement. The court set August 21, 2012 at 3PM as the time for the next court conference. The documents can be viewed on PACER. The case is pending in the Northern District of NY under Index No. 09 cv 01252.

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